Arno I can understand being frustrated with the politics of your country but rather than contemplate leaving work for change. I mean beyatching about things on an internet board is good for blowing off steam but going out and campaigning and organizing is going to help get things done.
I think that's the main political ideology of right wing parties, attack those people that are different and that you hate. They have their chance to attack the left wing parties simply because of global recession, I wonder how would they handle the same economic problem if they were in charge? It's alarming that right wing parties win on elections, I mean it would be ok if they were conservative but they're also degrading Muslims just because they're Muslims? Oh well I'm living in a country where right wings parties always win and to tell you the truth it made me more liberal than ever.
Its probably little consolation to your Arno but apparently far right anti-immigration parties have done well accross Europe in elections to the European parliament so the Netherlands aren't alone.
I think right wing parties winning out all across Europe is much more proof of an anti-EU stance among some Europeans than a general anti-Muslim sentiment. I think arno is just misreading it and defining their electoral victory as a function of anti-Muslim sentiment, when it seems more likely that the average European is less comfortable with the idea of a European superstate. Since we are talking about Euro elections, at least we can cheer on one electoral outcome!
I won't respond to the post of Basso since I already explained myself in my previous post. Don't worry I was mainly just blowing of steam. We will probably not move to another country (even if wilders does win the election in two years, which I seriously doubt). I am active in discussions about politics, however most people voting for wilders are not influenced by reason . I do not join a political party since no party fits my ideas 100%, and there are about 3 parties for who I could vote. Unfortunatly it does not console me, the Dutch are supposed to be more tolerant than most of Europe, furthermore I'm not happy these ideas exist in the rest of Europe. But thanks for trying No i'm not misreading it. the PVV is popular in Dutch politics and it is mainly a one issue party (blaming the immigrants and Islam for everything). They are also anti Europe, but that is not the main reason they got this many votes, it is a small contribution. Some Europeans are uncomfortable with a European superstate (I'm in favour of such a concept, but there must be some laws we can keep, similar to the way America US does it), but like I said the reason wilders won is mainly because of his Islam standpoint (and driving fear in the hearts of the less intelligent). Yeah i heard about the Swedish election, funny
this was actually a fairly civilized discussion w/ arno, so i'm not sure why you felt the need to SamFisher in your OP to me- a bit off-putting in this context, and it obscures whatever it is you're actually trying to say. in any case: Arno writes post saying he's ashamed of his country for its rightward tilt, and mistreatment of muslim immigrants. Arno mentions Pym "who got murdered", w/o mentioning any context for Pym's killing. Arno discusses Wilders, calls him an idiot Arno fails to mention van Gogh it seems to me that one cannot fully understand the muslim issue, including resentment towards muslims, in the NL, without at least highlighting that two prominent voices in the debate (whetehr you agree with their policies or not) were killed, either by muslims or muslim supporters. that's the only point i was making.
I think basso makes a legitimate point. just reading through this thread. but arno did answer your question so maybe you should layoff a bit
I actually have to agree with Basso that the discussion we were having was quite civilized (which i didn't expect since I'm not that impressed with Basso in threads about American Politics, sorry Basso). First Pim (you write it Pim not Pym) was murdered by a normal Dutch man, he wasn't necessarily a Muslim supporter, he was a socialist, and environmentalist. I mentioned was murdered for his political ideas, more information was irrelevant IMHO. The murder of van Gogh was irrelevant IMHO, because it was the work of one lunatic. It did influence the opinion of some of the PVV voters, but remember that Pim Fortuyn was already popular before either one of the murders, so it is not like PVV voters were tolerant and suddenly became anti immigrants. Furthermore Van Gogh was not a prominent voice in the debates. He was not a politician. He just tried to insult everybody to get attention, he became a symbol for some people after he was murdered not before (the only thing he did before was making the movie submission).
Keep in mind I am an idiot so everything that follows is informed by my idiotness. First, I felt the need to comment with my initial post because you found it "interesting" that arno did not mention two murders. That is accusatory. You were apparently so shocked that you had to proceed to ask him what he thought of murder. Because he might think it is hyper-cool? Just an odd line of reasoning. Further, as I and arno have mentioned, the two murders were not related and one of them had nothing to do with the government. As arno just pointed out, the Pim murderer was a Dutch, not a Muslim, radical. One of his reasonings was he didn't like Pim's villification of Muslims, but that was just one part. van Gogh was murdered by a radical Muslim because he made a very anti-Muslim movie. So in addition to accusing arno of something weird in a thread where he has been nothing but sincere and honest (and in a pseudo "polite debate" manner) you then talk about some kind of movement of intimidation for which arno should be ashamed. Two separate killings, where just because the word "Muslim" was involved in some form now constituted intimidation by the giant 5% majority of the population? The accusatory part was obnoxious but the "intimidation" part was funny to me. With regards to me being a big meanie and putting you off...you should never expect me to engage you seriously. I love intelligent discussion but I also enjoy the nonsensical and if you do not present an option for the former, I will most certainly engage in the latter when the mood strikes me. I like to be stupid. What else am I to do as a syphilitic leper in Xibalba?
