Yes, I feel the same way. I think it is terrible he was murdered. I do have to say that IMHO Theo van Gogh was an idiot, he was one of the people who always tried to provoke other people. But I believe that you shouldn't be killed for being an idiot. I was very upset that he was killed by a immigrant, since it increased the bad reputation immigrants had (strange since the murder on Pim Fortuyn didn't increase the bad reputation Environmentalist had). I believe this murder was one of the main reasons Wilders is so popular now a days. I do not completely agree on this part, The Dutch did have quite some minorities before and it mostly went well (although like I said the people from the Maluku Islands did have some problems). The amount of muslim immigrants did not dramaticly increase the last couple of years. The only thing that changed was 9-11 and the murder on Van Gogh. I believe many Dutchmen are indeed tolerant towards immigrants. However the Anti-Islam sentiments are becoming more focal, which is a bad sign. I do not know how strong the anti-Islam sentiments are in the US. I'm very impressed the US elected a minority. That hasn't happened in the Netherlands yet, but i believe the biggest obstacle for this is that most our minorities are not Christians. An atheist will have no problem being elected here, but (especially now a days) it will be very hard for a devoted non-Christian to be elected. There are actually some politicians (from a minority) that might be elected someday (I believe the Mayor of Rotterdam Ahmed Aboutaleb is one of those people. A other reason why it might be easier for a black person to become president is that There have been Black people in the US for a much longer time than there have been big groups of minorities in the Netherlands, so it might have been easier for the people to feel a connection with a minority. And the minorities in the US represent a bigger percentage of the society (at least that is what I think) so it is easier to get elected. That being said, I do not claim that Europe (or the Netherlands for that matter) is more acceptable towards immigrants than the US as a whole. I think every country has some people who do accept minorities, and some who do not. There are many things in which I do not understand the choices the US has made, same sex marriage (although many states are improving), gun ownership, soft drugs policies and in general the Us is more conservative than the Dutch, but like you said I’m not sure if acceptance of minorities is one of them. Muslims are only about 5 % of the population, (Christians is about 43%, and Atheist is about 48%), so not that big of a group. The nether land is a small country we only have 16 Million inhabitants in about 41.528 square kilometres. Muslims are not being blamed for taking away jobs ,the unemployment rate is low in the Netherlands so nobody is blamed for taking away jobs. Muslims have many different type of jobs, however for many it is not low paying jobs since they are not that educated. this is changing since the new generation does get proper education. The main reasons why the right winged parties demonize them is because of fear. Fear for changes in our cultural values (which is just a sad reason), fear for terrorists (which was increased by the murder on Theo van Gogh). Also they can be blamed for taking money from our government without working (because of our social system). But the main reason is fear for terrorism and introducing a new Culture (and thereby replacing the Dutch culture).
Dude you can not leave your country, hang in there and get it right. So many people felt the same way you do about Dubya...but we finally got it right. DD
yeah I know, Luckily the real election will be in 2 years. so he has all the time in the world to become less popular. Furthermore here you have to form a government with a couple of different parties, and most parties have stated they will form a government with the PVV. So I will not have to move. Funny thing is, Wilders is starting to verbally attack the high educated left winged "elite". So maybe if that trend continues I might be forced to move (since I'm part of that "Elite").
Yes, America is a great country and I don't think we're ever given enough credit for that, and I think we're often attacked unfairly. I see the election of a "minority" to the highest office in the land a great achievement for the country in a sense, but it's not shocking. I never had any doubt that this country would elect a minority. It only proves that people voted for the content of the message, not the race, etc. of the messenger. That being said, there has to be something in these guys' (the right-wingers) message over there in the Netherlands that people like? Something that people identify with? If the country is so progressive, what is it in these peoples message that makes them even slightly popular? Is it just the Muslim thing? Maybe these are dumb questions, just trying to get a feel for how things are there.
As far as I understand, India has an Italian as the leader of its sitting governing party, a minority Sikh as its prime minister, and up until a few years ago a Muslim as its president and another Muslim as its wealthiest man. The current president is a woman. Another woman had served as prime minister several times with the first term having begun in 1966.
Arno_ed, hang in there. Not too long ago, they wouldn't serve my father a coke after he returned from the korean war, now we have a man of color in the office. This country still refuses to talk about the african holocaust. In time , it will get better.
I do not think there is something in the message, besides fear. You all found out how strong a political weapon fear can be. The reasons they became popular 1: A charismatic person to tell people that a lot of things were wrong in the country, and it was the fault of the immigrants (similar to Germany in the 40's) even though it was going great in this country. 2: 9-11 3:The murder of Theo van Gogh. 4: Most people are not interested in politics, so the PVV keeps on bashing the normal politicians and the normal politics. 5: The PVV was also anti-Europe, they wanted to have a little to do with Europe as possible (the other parties that won this election were very pro-europe, so it is not a idea shared by all the Dutch) Some people believe that the immigrants have a high amount of petty criminals (but I do not have this experience). But the strange thing is that the villages were the PVV is most popular (and the Anti-Islamic sentiments is the highest) are usually the towns were there are very few immigrants. So they base their opinion of Muslims solely on what the media tells them and what PVV tells them. Of course there are some cultural differences between the immigrants and the other Dutch, but that does not make the immigrants less than the other Dutch. Most people who I believe to be progressive also hate the PVV. Like I said most people in the Netherlands think Wilders is an idiot. But I’m shocked that such a high amount (I believe about % 17 of the people who voted (only 36% of the Dutch voted) of people actually agree with him. This link is about the dutch european election, it show how there was voted, and what the media thinks is the reason for the PVV success http://euobserver.com/9/28248 p.s. I voted for GroenLinks (The green social party)
Thank you so much for explaining, it's nice to have insight to how things are over there. I thought I'd bring up a couple "parallels" to our country here. The first being our current issue with illegal immigrants and I've noticed some of the same sentiments here towards them (particularly in the south), that they commit more petty crimes, they take jobs of Americans, etc., so it's interesting to see that there with the Muslim population. Also, I see a parallel and a little irony with your 1st point, "A charismatic person to tell people that a lot of things were wrong in the country", because something similar happened here with President Barack Obama. (And I'm not trying to get in a political debate so please, people, don't attack me) Then Senator Obama was very adamant in his campaign (and maybe rightfully so) that many things were wrong with the country, but rather than blaming immigrants as in your situation, the blame was shifted towards the previous administration (and maybe rightfully so, I'm not here to argue this), and the previous President, and the previous majority-party. My point being is that it seems funny to me how politics-as-usual happens everywhere, even in the Netherlands, and that some of the same tactics can be used everywhere when the climate is right. In your situation, though, it seems much more unfair to inflame a population and polarize people and place the blame on a group/minority of the population, whereas in our system, things weren't going well, so it seems natural to blame the party previously in power, because they had the power to do something about it. Just wanted to share that, thanks for enlightening me.
Seems like voter apathy will be the death of us all since it allows people like Wilders a possible chance in taking control. If there's one thing I'm proud of, it was the amazing turnout for college kids who came out in droves to the polling station to cast their votes for Barack Obama (myself included). 36% turnout... that's a damn shame. The brainwashed masses that respond to this xenophobia usually are well organized and come out in big enough numbers on election day to sway the vote because they're effective tools for these demagogues. I place the 'blame' squarely on those shoulders who ignore their civic duty by not voting without legit reasons. Working as campaign volunteer and going door-door for Ron Paul and Obama, I realized how powerful having someone write a candidate's name on a ballot can be for my country. For the first time in a long time, relatives abroad were wowed by the POTUS this week. It was a simple speech in Egypt and nothing more than respectful words that clearly stated what needs to be done, and in times like this sometimes that's all you really need to get things started. Voter apathy is self-perpetuating. If you really love your country, don't abandon her now by preparing to move. If the whole door-door thing is too crazy for you, the least you can do is earnestly discuss the consequences of having dangerously stupid people like Wilder in office whenever you get a chance to with people that you know. Hopefully that turnout number will be higher and if your Dutch politics assessment is accurate, the moderate group's vote will defeat the xenophobic/Islamo-phobic one.
I think there's something to be said about voter apathy, and it's very common here in the US as well. It seems like apathy is lessened or isn't as prevelant when somebody speical arrives on the scene (eg Obama), or after things get really, really bad and people just get fed up and finally decide to get up and do something about it (some people would point to Bush). Unfortunate that it takes that long to get people to move, seems like a vicious cycle.
Do note that this was the election of European parlement, So in fact it didn't matter that much, these people will not have any real power. The only reason I’m this upset is because it is a sign that with the next election for the Dutch government these parties could again get this many votes. I'm not really patriotic, it is not that I love my country. I couldn't care less if we all become part of Europe as a super state (similar to the US). I really do not care for our royal family. The only time I become patriotic is with sports. I think My girl and I will not move to another country, there are to many thing I love here to leave. logicx you are correct. However one of the big differences between how Obama held campaign and how Wilders is working is that Obama tried to use hoop for the future, and Wilders only uses fear. For me there is a bigger link between the second election of Bush and Wilders. But lets not get into a discussion about Obama (we already have enough of those) but politics is indeed the same everywhere
Thanks for the follow up, and i didn't really expect you to feel any different regarding either murder. i do find it interesting however that you began this thread with a list of reasons of why you were ashamed of your country, and focused on the politics of Pym and Wilders (and one can assume by extension those of van Gogh), and their murder(s) received no mention. it would seem to me that the intimidation of those with opposing political views by killing their most outspoken members is at least as big a reason to be "ashamed" as the the views of the murdered themselves. one could argue, and you allude to it, that the murder of van Gogh (and 9/11) served to reinforce the attitudes of Pym and Wilders. i would add the furor over the publications of the Danish cartoons of Mohammed. in each instance, and in your original post, you seem to excuse these acts of violence, and focus on the behavior of the victims. i would suggest that the arguments of xenophobes such as Wilders would have much less resonance if the rest of Dutch society held Muslim immigrants (and those who support them), to the same high standards as Wilders. instead, it seems they're coddled, excused for their own racist and intimidating actions. They need to held accountable, and need to demonstrate a willingness to be integrated into a society that i suspect is largely willing to welcome them with open arms. i'm just a casual observer of dutch politics, so i'm sure there are many local nuances i might miss. and i'd think the Dutch experience integrating an indonesian minority in the post-colonial period would go a long way toward helping the country manage an influx of african and muslim immigrants. i would add one more thought about the difference between america and Europe generally: america may be in many ways more conservative, but i also feel it is more tolerant of differences that europe, generally. racist idiots like David Duke or Al Sharpton may have a loud megaphone, or a small but devoted following, but they and their views will never enter the mainstream of american politics.
What if the apathy comes from the fact that many people do not trust the political system that "offers" them the right to vote somebody to office once a while? What if the two-party election is actually one-party election which serves the rich from inside out? Does voting or not voting really make any difference to their lives or the future of the country?
arno_ed, How much does anti-EU/anti-Lisbon Treaty sentiment play into the vote? All across Europe, Conservative Parties made gains, sometimes enormous gains, even though these parties are vastly different. The one common theme seems to me to be that all of them are running against expansion of EU power.
The reason why I focused on the election part and not the murder part is because I'm not ashamed of my country because one lunatic kills someone (ok in this case there were two lunatics). This is where I disagree with, I do not excuse acts of violence, I also was not impressed with the reaction to the Danish cartoons (although in the Netherlands there was no reaction). But in general in the Netherlands the Muslim community does nothing wrong, however they are feared, and demonized. I cannot accept that people write down an group of people just as a result of their religion, or sexual preference or any other reason. What I really dislike in people like Wilders is that he does not seem to care for the good of the country. He tries to provoke a reaction (like with Fitna) when it is not needed. I believe the Muslim community shouldn't react. When Fitna came out very few people actually cared (which was not what Wilders had hoped for). If people keep referring to your believes and culture as ridicules, and fascist, than I can understand you are getting upset (like i said before Violance is never the right solution). Luckily the Muslim community in the Netherlands has not been violent and did not try to provoke others. I believe the freedom of speech is a good thing, but always trying to hurt certain groups is not acceptable. That is right, in the beginning when the Indonesian immigrants came here there has been some difficulties, but that is completely solved now. So That is also a reason why I cannot understand the fear people have for the immigrants of Northern Africa. The problem (and also advantage) with the Dutch political system is that it is fairly easy to become part of the Mainstream, our government always consists of a couple of different parties (mostly 3) who work together (for example for some time the liberals, labour party, and the democrats worked together). I cannot speak for other European countries, but in the Netherlands the Anti European sentiment does play an important role. Wilders does not want Turkey to become part of the European union. However the parties that are Pro-Europe also won big. Mainly the parties that were not that outspoken about Europe lost this election.
Unless I completely misunderstand the term (which is possible, as I had never heard it and looked it up on wikipedia) the african holocaust refers to the imperialist colonization of Africa and the slave trade. To suggest that the US has refused to talk about either of those seems completely inaccurate to me, seeing as I learned about both of those topics in grade school.
This is gold. Two extremists with different causes murder two public figures represents some kind of "culture of intimidation" for which arno should be ashamed? Would you ever say that you were ashamed of the US because it has repeatedly allowed the "intimidation" of public figures such as Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley, Huey Long, brothers Kennedy, MLK, X, Reagan (almost), Lennon, Cobain (Courtney did it, booo!), blah, blah, blah? Be careful about your answer - a lot is riding on it. Answer poorly and I will assassinate my own person and then somebody else will ask you if you were ashamed of allowing me to intimidate myself and then your answer will dictate their future and a terrible cycle of violence will ensue that has no choice but to result in the deaths of thousands of people, hundreds of dogs, an untold number of birds, and 7 lizards.
god, i really thought you weren't such an idiot, but perhaps i'm mistaken. it's only the contrast between the subject of his thread, and the omission of two directly related murders that i found remarkable (worthy of remarking on). i don't see how one can comment on the assimilation of muslims in the netherlands, particularly in the manner arno did (particularly including Wilders in his subject, w/o bring up these two events.
Oh you are way mistaken. I am super stupid to the max!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I thought you were upset that he was not ashamed of the murders not because he didn't mention them because he did mention the Pim Fortuyn assassination in his initial post. With regards to van Gogh, he was not part of the government so why did arno need to bring that up in order for you not to find it "interesting" when arno was talking about his government? I am wicked r****ded so you need to spell things out and write very slowly.
