Hypothetical - would you trade Harden for Kawhi?

I don't know if it's because he's stubborn. I don't know why he won't change his game to play more off ball to co-exist with Lawson.
Yeah sorry but a) OKC years were years before since then Harden has changed his style. He has developed more..developed into this. b) comparing TEAM usa when there is one ball for like 15 all stars and it's only for a few games against often hillariously bad competition consisted of non NBA caliber players and not a whole year it's not something I take as any kind of proof.
c) Thorpe said taht precisely because Harden was coming off the bench was a reason he wanted to get traded to have his own team. Is it in his mind that in his own team he must have so high usage and possesion of the ball? I do not know but it sure seems so.

Every player has limitations yes. But some players limitations aren't HALF the side of the game! Defence is half the game.

Your comparison between Jackson adn Kerr fails to aknowledge the natural development and improvement that occurs in young players. Green is not just better because Kerr gave him the opportunity. He is better because he developed. And he is better this year because he developed more.
Barnes 48% shooter? Yeah that's 100% a system benefit, when you have two historically elite shooters.

Then to your point Kawhi isn't going the rest better. Yeah he would. He would be able to hide and cover their defensive deficiencies much better than Harden who makes it worse. He would allow Lawson to have the ball in his hands and run the offence and playmake.


I'm not downplaying the coaching because it is a very serious factor. However it's a two way street. When Harden won't play defence and wont' give effort in defence for a lot of games, and won't play offball because he doesn't want to or can't or for whatever reason that means that the roster and the system is shaped to fit Harden.
And that requires specific role players next to him that are both hard to find and hard to acquire.

 

The player JH has become today which is an isolation player is who he's going to be for the rest of his career. You really expect him at this point of his career to actually change his game? We would be lucky to see him adjust to it. To this day when this guy doesn't have the ball he doesn't move. He does set screens for others. he doesn't cut. He just doesn't move well without the ball. Bringing up how he used to be before he established himself as this player doesn't mean anything if he isn't willing.

Why people bring up Team USA as an example is not valid. You have a team full of the best players in the league. Of course everything is easier for everyone. The rigorous and draining course over an NBA season not so much.

Some people credit the improvement of the GSW players on simply coaching waaaay too much around here. Coaching is a mere tool to support the work these players put in where they each individually get better on their own. Coaching doesn't make steph a better ball handler, a draymond a better passer or 3 pt shooter, a barnes a better post player, a klay a better dribble penetrator.

 

Yes, after the Thunder wanted him to sacrifice his salary then sure.

Also again, your point was that he won't change his game and he already has. It's nothing to just go "Alright, I'll do this for the team now." If that's asked of him

Have you seen Lawson play? THEY have tried to get him to play PG. He doesn't want to. Stop blaming Harden for that. They even tried to get him minutes WITHOUT Harden, all he does is defers. That's all he does. How many times can you defer to a player that wants to defer?

Curry is a bad defender too though...

Green is better because the coach gave him a chance to grow as a player. First thing Kerr did or one of the first was start Green and gave him a bigger role. You develop BECAUSE of playing time and because the team has a belief in you to do so. Without that you are just another NBA player.

No, that's silly now. You think Kawhi is improving Lawson's defense? He doesn't even talk? Remember that, he's no Garnett.

Watch the Rockets vs Mavs. Mavs get Dirk on a smaller player EVERY time they want to. The Rockets happily switch and let it happen. That is a coaching decision. If you tell Kawhi to guard a player that gets hot for the Rockets the other team will switch him off that player.

This is why the Rockets suck at defending. Teams get whatever matchup that pleases them.

As for Lawson, this guy hasn't proven that he wants to play PG or is capable of playing PG at a high level without a team fitted around him.

See that's the thing though. My guess is that if the Rockets get Thibs, Harden WILL play defense because he'll have no choice to. Not only that but Thibs will understand that you can't let the other team get whatever match up they dream up of.

 

Have you seen the Rockets offense? Barely anyone moves. They often take turns ISOing the ball.

We actually let Beverly and Ariza ISO...WE LET them do that. The Coach allows them to play lazy like this so they do.

Team USA is another example of how coaching matters. So tell me how that team lost to Greece and Argentina years back?

Well, when you are coaching a team that never has properly utilized DMO's post game, lets Josh Smith jack up 3s (Along with Brewer and anyone else on the team) lets Jones bring the ball up one too many times...lets Ariza and Beverly ISO...

You tell me those players are playing to their strengths...

 

So if a player doesn't work to improve on his own and simply gets playing time and his teammates believe in him they automatically get better?

No it doesn't work that way.

 

Doesn't mean that Harden himself didn't want to be the topdog and have his own team.
He already has yes. When he was younger in the natural developmental years of the player. A vet of 7 years who in 6 months becomes 27 to change his game style and his usage? I mean sure it could happen ..everything is possible. And what evidence you have that it is likely to happen?
Because years before when he was a different player and not a star he used to?
What have you seen in the last two years in his Rocket team to show you that he can play off the ball? Willing or able to?

Yes I blame Harden as well as Lawson as well as the coaching staff. Morrey talked about Harden playing off the ball. The Coaches did. What did we see? Harden not playing off the ball. When he doesn't have the ball he doesn't move.

Opportunity is only one aspect. Players get opportunity but don't develop all the time. Green ALSO DEVELOPED. It's extremely UNFAIR to downplay Green's personal improvement and progress as a player and attribute it only to a coach. Extremely unfair for the work he has put it to develop his skills and game.

Silly? No Silly is to think that because Kawhi doesn't talk in interviews he doesn't talk in the court in DEFENCE!!! Are you kidding me?
The no.1 rule of defence is communication. Kawhi is reigning DPOY and you want to tell me he doesn't talk in defence? He doesn't communicate on the switches?/?? That's plain ridiculous.
Of course he would help Lawson's defence by hiding it better than Harden who by contrast makes it even worse. (of course with such a bad defender like Lawson he would't be able to hide him completely but the perimeter penetration would be MILES better).

Ok keep guessing about Thibs. When we see Harden playing consistently defence for a whole NBA season and give effort and play off ball as I said we can have a different conversation because Harden will be a different player.

 

Who said that he didn't work on getting better?

Harrell works on getting better, but if he never gets a chance to show that then guess what?

No one said that the players have nothing to do with it, but this idea that coaching can't make players look better is insane to me. Just look at Barnes, look at Barbosa, Look at Speights, look at anyone that puts on that jersey. No one comes on that floor and ruins the flow of the team.

If again you have Beverly and Ariza handling the ball you are going to get what you get. If you have Smith and Brew spot up at the 3 point line you are going to get what you get. If you have DMO just being used as some pick guy you get what you get. You aren't playing to these players strengths.

Everyone on the Rockets looks worse then they actually are. Everyone. That's on coaching.

 

when the team is built around JH and everyone understands he's going to ISO, its no wonder the movement doesn't exist. Players move when the ball moves. That's just simple basketball.

Didn't bring up coaching as a topic here. You used it as an example of JH playing a certain way when it doesn't apply to how the NBA season operates.

It looked like they used Dmo just fine last year. Maybe if he was ever healthy enough to go through a complete season they could. JS really? What else do you expect him to do. He's the same exact player hes always been. He's no longer a relevant player. People thought the Clips were making a mistake just letting this guy rot on the bench. There's a reason for that and we're seeing it first hand.

 

exactly. It's hillarious some of the posts in here.
According to some posters a coach is a magician who develops or Undevelops players on his own. A coach is to blame for all of Harden's flaws and for Green's and Kawhi's perfomance.

 

I voted yes.

 

When you have Bev and Ariza?

Funny that you mention them because it is because of Harden's flaws that such players are in teh roster!!!

You are going to mourn that we didn't get Lowry? One player?
Well guess what. If Harden hadn't such limitations in his game you could fit next to him half the league's pgs. Now you can't.

And you have to suffice with Bev and Ariza. Role players who have serious flaws but they were chosen to fit next to Harden.

 

If you're going to compare the rockets and gsw and are puzzled why the Rockets look worse then ask yourself who actually worked to get better on this team. How do you improve as a team if your players don't improve on their own. In this case, it wouldn't matter what coach comes in. They aren't the ones executing out there. If you want to say the players no longer buy into what the rockets are trying to do then I would agree but don't expect the Rockets to look better when nobody got better individually. That goes for everyone on the team not just JH.

 

You need to learn about the Great Hakeem Olajuwon I think. You can change your game at 33, you Vince Carter always just been a spot up shooter?

Coaching dictates habits, offense, defense, all of that as a team.

Again, which Rockets are actually moving off the ball?

You guys keep saying this like if Harden goes out of the game the Rockets just magically turn into this actual team with a purposeful offense.

No one said that Green doesn't work on his game. Hell, most NBA players do? But the idea that Kerr had little to do with it even he'd tell you is wrong.

Coaches push buttons and know how to do that. The things Phil Jackson would do for Kobe or Jordan...

The things Kerr did with Green...

I'm sorry but even Pop thinks your wrong.

So yeah, you are wrong there. As Pop realizes this is a weakness of his he works with it. As a great coach does.

Also no, If Lawson is one on one against Curry at the top of the key there is nothing Kawhi can do to help Lawson.

Or that Kawhi is going to stop Dirk getting switched onto another player when the teams defense is to switch everything.

Kawhi will be told to Switch and now you are telling me he will go against the coach's order and not?

Nah this is no guess. It's because Thibs is an actual coach, he'll demand this of his players and he'll give them roles on defense and where to be and plans on how to stop a certain player.

He wouldn

 

What? Harden is also the GM now? Seriously? Anything to blame Harden I see lol.

Or if the GM didn't decide to chase after Melo so hard...

Umm no, they get some of the blame here too. Unlike some I'm willing to call it like it is on ALL players and not coddle some just because they are "Role" players.

They have serious flaws AND we let them play to them. I don't know how to make that more clear to you.

 

Changing your game because you're declining is completely different than changing your game in your prime especially fresh off of a mvp caliber season.

 

I'm not reading 6 pages to see if it's been mentioned but Leonard is #1 in the league in 3 point FG% at .482

Not Curry or Reddick believe it or not

This man WORKED on his shot.

Harden got fat.

Do it

 

Wait...so the entire Rockets team just was lazy and didn't get better?

You really believe that?

I mean again, what else are you expecting out of Smith and Brew shooting 3s? What else are you expecting from Bev/Ariza running offense? Did you expect Brewer to develop a knock down shot or for Beverly to be able to handle a set?

Coaches aren't the ones executing out there but they are the ones that are cool with Ariza handling the ball as much as he does and expecting him to execute with it...

 

Yes let's compare Harden to Hakeem.

Not saying at all that if Harden goes off the game the team will change. Saying that Harden was specifically told by the GM and Coaches to play off the ball and he showed an inabillity or unwilingness to do so. FOrgive me as not caring that much waht Sewer does. Sewer is going to be off the team pretty soon. The conversation was about Harden and his game. He doesn't move off the ball. His usage is humongous. His defence is attrocious.
Could coaching be a factor in all this? Yes.
Is coaching to blame solely for all this? No.

Oh please!! Do you actually interpret that quote as saying Kawhi doesnt' talk in defence?:grin:
That's really hillarious. He doesnt' talk enough to be a leader yes. He doesn't talk enough to apease Pop who is a perfectionist and is trying to push his players to become even better. Not talk much in defence? LMAO
There is NO player in the whole wide world and in the history of the league who is such good defender and DPOY as Kawhi is, that didn't talk in defence.

I'm sorry but it's really preposterous to believe that Kawhi doesn't talk in defence and in rotations. :grin:

Yea ok. So go make another thread when Thibs or someone else make Harden into an average at least defender who is consistent all the season gives effort on both sides of the game and plays off ball.

 

That's hard for you believe? It shouldn't be. Of course the players didn't get better and that goes for everyone.

 

Nice strawman. No Harden is not the GM. His flaws limit the pool of players that fit next to him to only a handful the vast majority of whom are roleplayers who serious flaws in their games.

NAME ME 10 PGS WHO AREN'T ALL STARS WHO FIT NEXT TO HARDEN. Come on.

And I will name you 50 players who would fit next to Kawhi seamlessly.