Hypothetical - would you trade Harden for Kawhi?

I think tonight shows exactly the value of coaching.

Things going well and JB makes a terrible dummy JB mistake and the Blazers cruise to a win.

Just going to end this with this.

Popovic, Jackson, Riley, etc...these guys are coaching good teams and it's no coincidence. It's because they understand the game, the players, and how to keep players motivated throughout a 82 game season.

Everyone is going to hammer Harden when nearly every other Rocket was trash tonight...but that all goes on Harden for some reason.

If Harden showed up training camp fat and lazy then I don't know what to say about the other Rockets.

 

qft...

 

Truth be told I can go on and say Ariza is being shet or Brewer, Jones, Smith and Capela are trailer trash but they are not paid to do everything.

If they have a streak of good games, fans should rejoice but not take it as granted.

None of those are current Allstars.

I am not a Harden fan or one guy that hates him with passion.
I am not his believer either.

It is a waste for both, the organization and the player.
Both are not perfect for each other. And Morey isn't really perfect for this job either.

FWIW I do not think the Rockets organization are a top address in the NBA.

I think the Rox are really shining from the outside but rotten in the inside.

The owner does not have the grand vision, the GM isn't up to the task.
The coaching staff is nowhere worthy of a good team.

Why would a guy like Pop want to come?

 

Mike James says otherwise.

And do you remember a guy called Arenas? He actually fluke a few seasons.

Oh how about that Dragic dude?

 

^^^

michael redd, anyone?

 

Are you kidding me? YES! Kawhi is an incredible defender and is only getting better and better offensively and he's a 47% 3pt shooter at nearly 4 attempts per game! WTF. Dude is so good and the more Pop gets him to study older MJ's game, the more Kawhi is starting to look like an older MJ offensively. Those gigantic hands. Man i'm so jealous of the Spurs franchise.

This sucks man. Without Hakeem, we'd be a bottom 5 franchise in league history. We've never even won 60 games in a season in our entire history. Blow it up. Trade them all for players with heart and determination.

 

After today's game, Kawhi is shooting 51/48/88. He's just carried his team to a W and hit the game-winning shot. Stop telling me Harden is a much superior offensive player than Kawhi. Take way his FTs and he might just be worse already.

Don't need to talk about the D of coz.

 

No, they are not all-stars or asked to every thing but could they do something? I mean something?

That's the thing. Look at the Spurs and Warriors. EVERYONE they put on the court contributes. Why is that? Why is it that eveyrone that plays for those teams seems to play better there then any other team they have played for? This is not some coincidence, this is coaching.

Guys come here and instantly their FG% drops. Some fans have called it the Rockets effect.

This team does not let players play to their strenghts. We have Lawson playing off ball, when we have Dmo we barely post him up, we have guys like Brewer and Beverly playing as spot up shooters...I mean these dudes are not playing to their strengths.

Also, I'm not saying the Rockets should get Pop.

I'm saying that Pop has made Kawhi a better player then he would be here.

I'm saying the idea that if you just swap Kawhi for Harden and things would be better, no.

People get on Harden for "Lack of leadership." well...Kawhi would be the same. He's not the leader of that team. Pop is, followed by Duncan, Parker, Manu...Leonard doesn't talk. Like he's a mute or something the Spurs players even say so.

He's the perfect Pop player actually because he doesn't talk, he just does what is asked of him like a machine...but that's not to say Pop can't handle a player with a more flamboyant attitude like Parker because he has.

I guess the point is...I think its silly to say the Rockets would be better with a switch.

You'll still have a team that just chucks contested 3s, that struggles to get back on defense, that has WTF rotations...like I don't know man.

People put so much on Harden but he's far from the only one getting beat on defense, not hustling for rebounds, or not running back.

I guess i'm opposed to this idea that if Harden gets a defensive stop that it then somehow makes Lawson a better defender because he saw the "Leader" do it.

Dwight will go into the HOF most likely because of his defensive accolades, Pat is an all NBA defender and Ariza is here for his defense...yet they still suck at it because the team doesn't play defense as a team. That's not going to change, no matter if you put Leonard in there or Paul George or whoever else you want to.

We should know this though. JVG could get at least decent defense out of anyone, so did Thibs. Those Pistons teams got defense out of Richard Hamilton.

I guess the main point is, Kawhi isn't solving the issues of this team. Scoring isn't the issue here.

If you swap Harden for Kawhi, who creates shots for others? It sure isn't Beverly and it sure isn't Kawhi.

In the end, it makes no sense to make the trade. Harden is a franchise player, so is Kawhi. It's about how the organizations build around them. Kawhi came into a built in organization that honestly would have won any ways if he weren't there.

Harden has come into an organization that is trying to build something. I've rambled enough about this.

 

Not even Jesus himself can save this ****ing team

 

I know you guys are looking for the easy answer but this wouldn't be it. You don't know what ya got till it's gone. Kawhi looks great with Tim Duncan Tony Parker and Pop. But give him Dwight Howard and JB and he wouldn't look that great. Harden isn't the problem.

 

Why have people started defending Harden lately?? Did you forget every game that happened this season and just looked at his stats?

I've been noticing this trend in the media as well. Apparently the narrative now is that Harden is single handedly carrying this team with very little help. Announcers are saying things like: Harden's stats are there the rest of the guys need to follow.

The only way you get that impression is if you haven't been watching the games and base everything off of stats.

He's the worst teammate I've ever seen, he makes everyone around him worse and I don't think there's ever been a player that has been allowed to do that for so long.

 

I think irrational comments like these are why people defend him.

 

And what exactly is irrational about that? Find me a player that has better stats playing with Harden than playing with a different team.

Playing with Harden means playing basketball a very certain way.
You either have to stand back and space the floor as best as you can, waiting for that inevitable last second pass or dribble drive kickout to a contested long range shot, the difficulty of which effectively lowers your career 3ptfg%.
Or if you're a tall guy, you get to rebound the ball and cover up for his defensive slip ups, getting the occasional (bad) alley oop pass.

You have to do these things irregardless of your actual ability to do them

You might be good midrange shooter, you might be a good post up player, you might be a good slasher/cutter, you might be a good floor general pg, whatever you are, you don't get to play to your abilities you get to play to the abilities of James Harden.

His usage rate is historical, his mpg is league leading, yet he will complain he has no help with playmaking. He doesn't allow for plays to be made, when he's not ballhandling he's just standing back resting/sulking and stalling the movement of the other guys on the floor. Basketball is a team sport, in order to run a play you need to have the ball moving and all 5 bodies moving. You can't have 4 guys try to make something while 1 guy watches.
That's why we haven't EVER seen a true PG get going with Harden on the floor.

Now please point out exactly what is irrational about this. You don't even need basketball intelligence to see that this is what's happening, just watch the games first, then look at the stats.

 

And what's most depressing is that we made this guy, with an analytically driven scheme, coaches that don't dare to say anything about or to their star player, and a fortunate playoff outcome we reinforced this guy's idea that this is the way he should play. Now he's got an ego so high he'll never see the truth.

 

Wow.

Defensive win shares
Kawhi 17.9
Harden 17.6

Harden off the planet in the OWS and VORP stuff etc.

 

No. If Harden was on the Spurs, he would be a perennial MVP candidate, at Curry's level.

 

Maybe after being assaulted by Pop and completely remodeling his game.

 

If Harden was drafted by the Spurs?
He would be another player. He would have been drilled to play defence otherwise he wouldn't see the court. He would more likely come off the bench and be the new Manu.
If he had been drafted there he would have developed differently.
But he didn't.

Same for Kawhi. If he had been developed in another team he probably would never reach so much of his potential. But he has.

And right now I would take Kawhi over Harden.

If you have Kawhi in your team, you don't have to look for specialists in all other positions to suit Harden. You dont' have to look for the elusive 3+D pg who is a good shooter but has very low usage to suit Harden. Or for the wing who is so good defender and so versatile to cover for Harden.
You wouldn't even have to use an elite defensive Center to cover for the perimeter lack of defence.

Ppl say Harden is our system here..yes he is. Because of his so high usage, because of how the rest of the starters have to fit to him not the other way around.
And right now our system is at the 9th seed.

But if we had Kawhi the system wouldn't be all around one player who is also oneway with complete lack of defence. The system would be different because it wouldn't be Harden-centric.
The pg would have the ball in his hands and playmake and the other wing or even the pf could be not good defenders because Kawhi could cover for them.

And Kawhi is getting every year better. Right now he is great offensively. With the rate he develops, his work ethic and his will to improve every year he adds new things to his repertoire and improves his shooting.

So yes. Kawhi is the product of the Spurs developmental program as is most players of the teams who drafted them.
Instead of using it against Kawhi we should be sad that Harden wasn't developed by a coach like POP who would drill in his head to play defence, drill in his head how to move off the ball and share it.

 

Kawhi is one of the most coachable players in the league, he'll do what you tell him to do and also improve his game every off-season. He doesn't get into any trouble outside basketball or appear on TMZ. I've never see him complain about calls, in fact, he rarely even speaks. Maybe he's not the best vocal leader but neither is Harden. He's also in contention for MVP this season, even though Steph pretty much that on a lock. Offensiely, he's only getting better and defensively, he's always been a beast. He shut down Lebron ffs.

 

There is a Harden on the spurs, his name is Ginobili. The comparisons have been made long before Harden ever became this good.

He is a great 3rd or 2nd guy. Not first, at least consistently. Your lead guy has to have the demeanor and consistency night in and out.