Sane, I don't think we would have enough money to sign Maurice Taylor after this trade. After Hakeem's retirement and negotiations with Shandon and Moochie have been completed, I estimate we will have around $8-9 million to throw at Maurice (counting the expected size of the cap next season). However, if we add Glenn's and Johnson's contracts, I think we would once again find ourselves over the cap. So, after 2000-2001, would you rather have Ervin Johnson and Glenn Robinson instead of Maurice Taylor and Hakeem retiring as a Rocket? I would definitely be scared of having such a depleted frontcourt with no inside bulk. In addition, Robinson brings no defense and is a scorer. This is the same for Maurice, in a way, but I liked his presence in the post and rebounding so far. Of course, we are not guaranteed of getting Maurice back, while your trade would fix us up with Robinson for the long term. On Milwaukee's side, I can see the reasoning. They have a strong team, surely capable of challenging in the East. Weak spot? Center. Olajuwon, to an extent, fixes that. Pryzbilla can help and is capable of playing big numbers, so they don't rely on him alone. They enjoy the cap space, as Glenn Robinson has a huge contract and plays in the position Tim Thomas prefers. They can then go on to use that space to pursue other guys who can fill their other needs. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com
Thanos, I don't know alot about the salary cap, but I know that wouldn't work for one reason: a player (like Hakeem) counts some obscene amount (150% of their old contract?) against the cap until they are cut or re-signed. That's why we had to sign CB4 to that low contract before getting Pip. If we cut Dream (freeing cap space for MoTay and Shandon), we'd have to wait until something like 60 days into the season to sign him again. ------------------
What I posted here doesn't make sense anymore due to Sammy's post. [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 30, 2000).]
I checked this, and Sammy is right. Dream's salary would count something near that amount against the cap. So, if we were to trade him we would give up all chance of signing Maurice Taylor. Shandon could be signed if he remains until he gets his Bird Rights. If we do renounce Dream, we cannot sign him using Larry Bird Rights till the following June 30. So, if we were to do what Thanos said, Dream would have to retire for a year, and come back the next to help thr Rockets. Somehow I don't see that happening. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 30, 2000).]
Damn, so much for that plan. I guess that leaves us standing still. We CAN´T trade Hakeem without jeopardizing either Mo´s and Shandon´s signing, or ruining our chances of having available capspace to make a run at Webber in case Mo doesn´t pan out. Which leaves with the following situation. We can only trade Hakeem for a package that lands us a first rate 2 (Garnett, Webber) or a crazy package that lands lots of promising young guns like the clips have. Say Olowokandi, Odom, Miles and so on. The Milwaukee idea is not bad, but Big Dog is a sieve on defense, and we are not exaclty in need of his high-scoring, ball demanding presence at the 3. In a nutshell: any package that could be intersting enough for us to trade Dream, would be unfortunately NOT in the best intersts of almost any other team in the league. So, it AIN´T happening. Now, that means if Dream doesn´t retire he will walk away on his own, or we could sign him for the mininum, like the Chuckster. But how does that work under the cap? ------------------ "I have posted so much that what I say must be true"
Thanos, that doesn't work. Free agents still count towards team salary. They DO NOT count $0. Hakeem will count in the neighborhood of $20m towards our cap as a free agent, until he signs a new contract. To erase their salary, you must rescind them. But, then you lose the right to sign them with a Bird exception for one year.
Thanos, If we re-signed Dream for (let's say) $5 million, 1 year, he'd immediately count for that amount, and we'd have leftover cap room. But I'm not sure at even that reduced rate that we'd have the $$ to sign both Shandon and Mo next year. As a solution to this problem, I would suggest this: sign & trade Hakeem to a team with cap room, such as Chicago or Detroit, for draft picks (which dont count against the cap). Then we'd have the $$ to sign our free agents and the draft pick(s) as a bonus (along with a trade exception too?). Only thing is, I don't know who's going to want Dream bad enough to give up picks, as opposed to just signing him outright. HP, great answer. Except what's that saying, an hour late and $20 million short? [This message has been edited by SamCassell (edited October 30, 2000).]
Sane, Houston and Milwaukee only need to be within 15% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted. The bucks will only need to give us ~13,875,938 worth of players, therefore we might want to leave out Ervin Johnson to give us more cap space for Taylor. Milwaukee trades: Glenn Robinson $8,120,000 to houston Milwaukee trades: Scott Williams $4,200,000 to houston Milwaukee trades: Mark Pope $498,500 to houston Milwaukee trades: Rafer Alston $423,500 to houston Milwaukee trades: Jason Hart $316,969 to houston Milwaukee trades: Michael Redd $316,969 to houston Total 13,875,938 Only Glenn Robinson(8,120,000), Jason hart(316,969) & Michael Redd (316,969) will be under contract beyond this season. From RocketDavo http://rocketdavo.tripod.com/ The Rocket's salary for next season would be ~ 31,405,259 if we exclude Drew & Bullard's salaries. We need to add the salaries of the three players we got from Milwaukee(8,753,938). That brings the total to 40,159,197. This total does include Carlos Rogers' salary, but some source said this is his last contract season. If we took out Carlos's salary (3,830,400) we got about 36,328,797 for our team's next season salary. The Cap is expected to be ~43,000,000 thus, that leaves us about 6,671,203 million for Taylor. I am not sure if Mo will sign for anything less than the max. I thought the max was 7 million but it turns out to be $9,658,000 million or 25% of the Cap (whichever is greater). http://www.members.home.net/lmcoon/salarycap.htm I guess Taylor's contract will all depend on how well he play this season. We also need to think twice about helping the Bucks, because we have their #1 pick next year so we don't want them to do well. This trade seems to work for Milwaukee because Glenn is the only primary player involved and they have Tim Thomas to replace him. However, I am not sure an offense minded Glen at 8 million a year is the player the Rockets want when we already have Cat, Taylor & Francis.
How about Hakeem to Orlando for Doleac and Outlaw. Actually, I guess that would never work as far as salaries go, but those are two role players that would fit in with the Rockets tremendously. ------------------
On Sane's trade, it might make more sense to take out the players who cant be traded until mid to late August as then this trade would work right now. PLus, I kinda like Ervin Johnson, although him and Cato would be like a two headed "monster" with very similar problems. And, I think many a people underestimate Glen Robinson. The man knows how to do much more than score, in my opinion he is very close to being an excellent all aorund player. But I also understand the argument that him, especialyl with Johnson, take away capspace for Taylor next season and we already have an offensive minded SF in Walt. IF Milwaukee offered that trade, though, Id do it, and take my chances on Mo Taylor next season. ------------------ Remember.... You are not really drunk until you must hold on to the grass to keep from falling off the earth.
Subtracting Jonhson for the trade would indeed make it work. In fact, after this upcoming season we would only have to retain Glenn Robinson. The others either have one year left on their contract or the following year is a team option. If we decide to go for Johnson instead, his salary would count against the cap the following year. rblh, What about Shandon's contract? If he renegotiates for the $4.1 million exception, it would still count against the cap. According to what I have calculated, we would not have anything (or not much) to sign Taylor if we do aquire Robinson. This would depend on Rogers' contract, but I do not think Taylor would settle for what is left. How did I come to this? Well, we have $29.1 million without including Bull, Shandon, and Moochie Norris. If Shandon does opt for the third year, we would have $31.5 million. Moochie Norris and Bullard would certainly count a little against the cap. We at least have to sign Moochie, as we need a backup PG. So, let's say around $3.5 million for both? This would come to $35 million. If we add Glenn's contract, we come to $43 million. So, that leaves us with nothing to sign Taylor unless the Rogers deal turns out to be till 2001. If we decide to not sign Bullard, we would probably have around $5 million to play around with. No way Taylor goes for this. No, I believe we should not pull the trigger on the trade unless you believe a lineup of Cato, Taylor, Robinson, Shandon, and Francis has a chance in the playoffs. Personally, I would not count on it. In addition, as I have already mentioned, Robinson doesn't necessarily fit our plans at the SF position, as he is a scorer and a poor defender. I don't think he's a good all around player, as someone mentioned. I would rather have Taylor, but will he settle for $8 million under the assumption that he performs well? Or would you rather have Robinson locked up? The Doleac and Outlaw trade doesn't work and doesn't make sense, even if plausible. I would also like to say that I chatted to a few Bucks fans and they gave me the following reasons as to why they would not do this trade: 1) Tim Thomas has expressed satisfaction in his being used to create missmatches as the Sixth Man. He doesn't mind coming off the bench as long as he gets his minutes. Obviously, he signed with the Bucks knowing that he would play behind Glenn. Maybe this won't work, but they don't have the urgency just yet. 2) Karl is happy with the current chemistry and does not believe he needs to trade any of his core group. In addition, I looked over their salary cap situation, and they would only have around $3 million (4, if they don't take option on two players) to sign other guys. Is this enough to lure a guy worth more (to them, at least) than Glenn Robinson? So, I would think that they would want to trade Johnson as well, as they would have Joel and Hakeem under the proposed trade. Around $6.5 million would be sufficient to get a nice free agent. Of course, we would have to take an additional contract and getting Taylor would almost be 100% out of the question. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 30, 2000).]
I can't tell you where I heard this, but look for this trade to occur- houston trades: Hakeem Olajuwon $16,000,000 to minnesota houston trades: Kelvin Cato $5,333,333 to minnesota TOTAL: $21,333,333 minnesota trades: Kevin Garnett $19,400,000 to houston TOTAL: $19,400,000 TRADE ACCEPTED Due to houston and minnesota being over the cap, the 15% trade rule is invoked. houston and minnesota had to be within 15% plus $100,000 of the salary given out for the trade to be accepted, which did happen here. This trade satisfies the provisions of the Collective Bargaining Agreement. ------------------
Ace, At first I thought we could sign Shandon for mid-level salary exception for ~ 4.5 million next season then I realized we no longer have that exception if we are under the cap. If we want to do this trade, the best we could hope for is that Shandon doesn't opt out. But if Shandon decided to do opt out, we need to find a way to dump Walt's salary (5,580,000) to a team that is under the cap to gain cap space; otherwise Sane's trade won't work.
rblh-You bring up an interesting point. If we were to trade Hakeem, assuming we picked up people with multiyear contracts (likely), we'd have a (league average, approximately) 4.5 mill exception to dispose of, which we could use to resign MoTay for a year or 2, and then tell Shandon to hang in 1 more and receive a lucrative deal. What about the Cavs? Would you take Ziggy or Mihm? ------------------ The Serious Police are watching. Follow the rules or be assimilated. Shandon is underrated.
That is right. Look for Garnett to hire Stanley Roberts as his eating advisor, and Ivan Putski as his strength coach. Garnett should start at center for the Rockets with his new 260 frame. ------------------
Who would you rather Robinson or Finley? Which lineup looks better? Cato Cato Taylor Taylor Robinson Finley Anderson/Mobley Anderson/Mobley Francis Francis
NIKEstrad, I have never seen Mihm play thus I have to rely on his preseaon stats. He has two average games and four bad games; I think I will pass on him. Zydrunas is an interesting idea, but his salary alone is not enough and his partial BYC player status will also make trading very complicated. Cleveland needs to add more players that they are willing to part with and we are willing to take. Zydrunas is a better scorer and rebounder, while Cato had quicker feet and is a better defender. I think we have enough fire power from the other positions, hence I would prefer to keep Cato instead of getting an overall better center in Zydrunas. I believe that every team needs one or two defensive minded starters, otherwise there won't be enough shots to go around. I also don't think that Taylor will be willing to accept 4.5 million a year, but I think we might have a chance to convince Shandon to take less for one more year. [This message has been edited by rblh (edited October 30, 2000).]
Now that ur done arguing, will someone PLZ check out my BUCKS trade (page 3) idea and gimme some comments?? I think it's the best trade mentioned so far....works out perfectly.... ------------------
I'd much, much rather have Finley. ------------------ When you make an assumption, you make an ass out of yourself and umption. visit www.swirve.com
