NewGuy- forgot about the Bird rights concerning Webber. Good point. I still stand by what I said. Every proposal I've seen that magically lands us Garnett without trading Steve looks laughable. There is no chance in hell we will be able to compete with the offers they will get, without at least including Steve. GM's will line up offering major superstars, and yet somehow we land him without losing Steve or Mobley? I'm not saying we should trade them, I want to stay pat with what we have which is wonderful. It's just silly that a rumor comes up with a Hakeem quote about being traded and now people think we can land Garnett with him. Please, stop the Hakeem for Garnett/Webber dreamcasting.
LilFrancis, A 6'5 SG who actually weighs less than our starting PG would get crushed by the Western Conference SF's. Not to mention him taking the ball away from our other good players by being a ballhog. Just say no to the idea of Hughes as a Rocket. ------------------ President of the Jason Collier police! Looking for next year's Dan Langhi? Draftsource.net ClutchTown.com
Friends don't let friends trade for a 6'5" SF. ------------------ "Nothing is certain but the unforseen." Some Dude
lol raven. in that case or a 6'6 one. but we've had a couple anyway-Elie, Anderson(well kinds of). Mobley has played some three when the mooch, steve, mobley, shandon/walt, taylor/cato group has been in.
Cabbage, Excellent post, man. Exactly the thoughts I've been trying to propose to the guys (mainly rblh). No way Olajuwon will attract fans. No way he helps a team that much in terms of play. No way the Bulls give up Fizer (and Miller) for Olajuwon. rblh, What I'm saying is that the cap clearing scenario is, to me, the one biggest reason to trade for Olajuwon. I seriously doubt the Bulls would see it any differently. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 29, 2000).]
I have more than enough trust that Rudy T. and CD will do whats best for the team. ------------------ I'ma need more than 6 and a half rebounds a game from the PF
Cabbage & Ace "MYTH #1: "Hakeem will improve fan attendance/bring fans." No offense here, but noone outside of Houston gives a damn about Hakeem. It's sad that it is that way, but that has always been the harsh reality throughout Hakeem's career. Moreso now that he is on his last legs and is barely effective. Why would fans from other teams actually be excited to come out and watch him play? Imagine if Patrick Ewing was traded to the Rockets instead of the Sonics. We'd all give him a few claps for a brilliant career, but noone will be pumped to go watch Ewing wind down his career. Same goes for Hakeem. Other fans will give him the courtesy applause he so rightfully deserves, but it is painfully naive to think he will raise attendance." My assumption that Olajuwon will attract fans is based on his ability to play healthy this season to average about 14 points, 9 rebounds and 1 plus blocks. I think he can accomplish these stats when he is healthy. It is true that no one outside of Houston gives a damn about Hakeem because he does not play for them. However once Hakeem play for the Bulls, the fan will treat him as one of them and when Olajuwon start producing he will gain fan support. His numbers might not make him the top tier centers in the east, but fans will treat him as one because there is a big deficit of top tier centers in the east. Fans usually think their players are better than they really are. Take Olajuwon, Ewing & Robinson for example, during the peak of their careers, some New York & San Antonio fans actually think that they are better than Olajuwon. Another good example is when the Bulls sign Mercers as their free agent, one of the Bulls' fan actually came to our site taunting about how good their off season move is. Can you imagine what they will say if they sign Olajuwon who can actually play and help them. It is funny you brought up Ewing and the Sonics, because if I remember correctly Sonics' season ticket sales actually go up after they acquired Ewing. It is true that if Ewing come to Houston he probably will not receive much support, but if Ewing were traded to Chicago he will receive support. For what ever reason Houston just don't sell out games at the same rate as Seattle and Chicago. "MYTH #2: "Hakeem could dominate in the East." John Ameche (sp.) is your average Eastern Conference starting center. I'm sure most of you remember the painful sight of Ameche destroying Hakeem in a regular season matchup last year. We play roughly 30 games against the Eastern Conferenc each season, and watch mediocre performances pile up. If he can't produce while in pinstripes, why do we think he could dominate for some other team?" You are comparing Olajuwon's performance at below 100% to Amaechi. I remember Amaechi out play Hakeem during one stretch of the game while Olajuwon out played him in another. For the record they play only 1 regular season game against each other with the following stats : http://www.nba.com/games9900/991108/orlhou/boxscore.html Amaechi : 18 points(5 out of 14), 6 rebounds, 3 assists, 1 steals, 4 turnovers and 0 block. Olajuwon: 16 points(6 out of 15), 8 rebounds, 0 assists, 6 steals, 3 turnovers and 3 blocks. Looking at these stats, I do not see how one would say that Amaechi destroyed Hakeem in that game. At 100%, he can compete with these second tier centers in the EAST and there are very few first tier centers left in the east with Smit's retirement and Morning's injury. Olajuwon was unable to produce in pinstripes because of his breathing problem not his lack of ability. Olajuwon have said that the condition is under control, therefore I believe he can produce. If an older Ewing can come back from a more severe injury I don't see why Olajuwon can't. I agree with you on MYTH #3, because I also can not see any contending team (with the exception of Portland, but I don't see them wanting Hakeem) that could give up $16 million worth of players that we want and still remain competitive. I agree with you totally on MYTH #4. I don't think he could lead teams like the Clippers and Bulls to the playoff, but I think he could improve a team. [This message has been edited by rblh (edited October 29, 2000).]
I think Cabbage made a bit of a mistake to take Ewing as an example. Contrary to Olajuwon, Ewing is widely regarded to be more productive at this stage. I'm not arguing that Dream could have a better season, but those are not the expectations. I do want to point one thing out. You say that Dream "now has these problems under control and I believe him, therefore he will produce." Well, Dream has said he has felt to be in the best shape of his life so often it's not even funny. Granted, he's not saying exactly that now but I do believe that having your expectations based on these statements is not very valuable. Sure, a healthy Hakeem will help. The questions has always been: Will he be healthy all year long? Anyway, why would the Bulls want fan support for one measly season? Are they willing to give up a nice player in Fizer and a promising center in Miller just to do this? Don't you think that if the Bulls wait a while, they could come up with a trade for the future? You also say that Fizer's value will drop drastically due to limited playing time. Therefore, waiting for a trade would not be beneficial. Don't you think that GM's will realize that the ability is there, regardless of playing time, just as we do? If you want examples, I'll give them to you: 1) Jermaine O'Neal 2) Kelvin Cato The Blazers got Dale Davis and Scottie Pippen for these guys. Sure, reasons might have been slightly different but their talent was valuable nonetheless. The Bulls fan who came to our site, by the way, was an idiot and was professing such things almost in jest. No way the average Bulls fan would call this a successful offseason. On the Sonics' season tix: Ewing produced last year. Therefore, fans will have higher expectations. Bulls fans will not rush to see Olajuwon as much, as he has not produced as much over the past few seasons. The Sonics have a rising star in Rashard Lewis, something the average Sonic fan did not know last season. Vin Baker played well in the Olympics, and seems happy with the team. At 100%, Hakeem Olajuwon could still be one of the top centers in the entire NBA. Remember last year? I think he scored 28 points against Sacramento one game. You are assuming that he'll stay healthy all year long? Dangerous and naive assumption. On myth #4: If Dream's only going to improve the Bulls' record by a tiny bit, why would they get him? To get a few more fans for one measly season? IF Fizer pans out or if they get another young guy in return, they will all the more attendance over an extended period of time? And, as one fan already mentioned, the Bulls have high attendance regardless. They will not give up a possible future for one season with Hakeem Olajuwon. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 29, 2000).]
If Dream is so keen on Vancouver maybe the Grizzlies will trade us Big Country ------------------ www.NOPostCount.com
As he gets older, Dream will be even more prone to injury and rehab time will be longer than when he was in his 20's. The Fountain of Youth is a myth and Dream will probably fail, as did Ponce de Leon, in finding it. The Griz would trade Big Country (but not SAR) for Dream to clear cap space, but why would Rudy do that? Tell them how it is thacabbage. Mango ------------------ Test Your NBA Trade Ideas 1. Put new topics in the proper forum. Things happening in the rest of the NBA 2. Use clear wording for new threads. 3. No duplicate threads 4. Conduct yourself as an adult. The Serious Police are watching. Donate Blood or be assimilated! [This message has been edited by Mango (edited October 31, 2000).]
Put the line in the water with a little worm on the hook and what do i hook, a mango fish......great Also heard from that University Blue poster the rockets are trading Dream to the Pistons for Eric Montross, just to keep him happy ------------------ www.NOPostCount.com
<h1>The Olajuwon Myths</h1> *NOTE: This is not intended to insult Hakeem, just to debate some common arguments used in Olajuwon trade scenarios. MYTH #1: "Hakeem will improve fan attendance/bring fans." No offense here, but noone outside of Houston gives a damn about Hakeem. It's sad that it is that way, but that has always been the harsh reality throughout Hakeem's career. Moreso now that he is on his last legs and is barely effective. Why would fans from other teams actually be excited to come out and watch him play? Imagine if Patrick Ewing was traded to the Rockets instead of the Sonics. We'd all give him a few claps for a brilliant career, but noone will be pumped to go watch Ewing wind down his career. Same goes for Hakeem. Other fans will give him the courtesy applause he so rightfully deserves, but it is painfully naive to think he will raise attendance. MYTH #2: "Hakeem could dominate in the East." John Ameche (sp.) is your average Eastern Conference starting center. I'm sure most of you remember the painful sight of Ameche destroying Hakeem in a regular season matchup last year. We play roughly 30 games against the Eastern Conferenc each season, and watch mediocre performances pile up. If he can't produce while in pinstripes, why do we think he could dominate for some other team? MYTH #3: "Hakeem could be that final peice to the puzzle for [team]." First of all, if [team] is already a contender, why would they trade $16million worth of players for a backup center? Second of all, unless the difference between being eliminated and getting to the Finals is 6 extra fouls, Hakeem isn't about to take anyone over the top. MYTH #4: "He could lead [team/I saw Clippers and Bulls mentioned in this thread] to the playoffs." Again, how different is the other team's situation than our current situation? He can barely play a full quarter for us, yet he will lead this other team to the playoffs? I love Hakeem for everything he's done for the franchise, and this was in no way intended to defame him. I am just pointing out that some people are really overvaluing him and his current capabilities. He will ocassionally have a breakout game with 10-15 points and 6-8 boards, but those games are few. He might make a decent backup center but at $16million no team is going to bite on it; atleast not with an offer that is mutually beneficial. [This message has been edited by thacabbage (edited October 29, 2000).]
I have to admit, I skipped to the end of this monster. My question is this. What can we work out with Miami? No one needs a center more than them, and a bidding war with Ney York certainly wouldn't hurt our haul. Let's go beyond the obvious and start looking at 3-way's. I also wouldn't mind getting Golden State in this mix. I miss those guys! Let's mention the name Antawn Jamison a few times, and get them going again. Sauceman ------------------ "Stranger things have happened, but none stranger than this" - Commentator after a parachutist landed in the ring of a Holyfield fight
Ace, "I think Cabbage made a bit of a mistake to take Ewing as an example. Contrary to Olajuwon, Ewing is widely regarded to be more productive at this stage. I'm not arguing that Dream could have a better season, but those are not the expectations." Again, that is the main reason we disagree, I base my assumptions that Olajuwon can come back just as an Older Ewing did while you have no faith in his health. I don't think it is a mistake to use Ewing as an example. It is a valid comparison between Ewing and Olajuwon as far as their skills, fan appeal & health condition is concerned because they are similar in these categories. Ewing also went through couple seasons of injury and many people lost faith in him, but he came back last season. Explain to me why a younger Olajuwon cannot do the same with a breathing problem that is less severe than Ewing's injury. "Anyway, why would the Bulls want fan support for one measly season? Are they willing to give up a nice player in Fizer and a promising center in Miller just to do this? Don't you think that if the Bulls wait a while,they could come up with a trade for the future?" If they don't care about fan support for one measly season, why did they over paid Mercer? Why are they persuading Smith for 6.5 million with the options that Smith could opt out of his contract in December (ditto for Miller)? That showed me they are desperate to sign any high profile players regardless of money or good skills. If Mercer and Smith is the best they could do why not Olajuwon who can actually play? As for Miller I have already pointed out numerous times in my prior posts that there is a very slim chance Miller will stay with the Bulls past December. He only signed on with the Bulls when they promised Miller that he can go to any team after December if he is not happy. That is not a good indicator Miller will stay, unless Chicago pulled a Minnesota and promised him more money under the table. Would you stay in Chicago as a player when you can go to any other team with the same among of money? "You also say that Fizer's value will drop drastically due to limited playing time. Therefore, waiting for a trade would not be beneficial. Don't you think that GM's will realize that the ability is there, regardless of playing time, just as we do? If you want examples, I'll give them to you: 1. Jermaine O'Neal 2. Kelvin Cato The Blazers got Dale Davis and Scottie Pippen for these guys. Sure, reasons might have been slightly different but their talent was valuable nonetheless. " I have never said that his trade value will drop drastically, I only said that his trade value will decline, there is a big different. The two you mention are centers and teams are usually willing to over pay centers just like the Rockets. Players that don't play the center position usually lose their trading value faster when they don't produce in the first few years. Jalen Rose is a good example; his trade value was near 0 after his first three seasons. As long as Brand plays PF in Chicago, Fizer will never get the opportunity to play meaningful minutes at PF. Just like the two trades you mentioned about, the Bulls are also in a tough situation. They are likely to lose Miller and they are unable to utilize Fizer. Fizer is only good to them if they can trade him for a player that can help the team, it does not help the team if he play ineffective minutes at small forward. I see this trade more of Fizer for Olajuwon not Fizer & Miller. This brings us back to square one, I think a healthy Olajuwon has value that equals to a Fizer. In addition, lottery picks are not without risks, history have taught us that lottery players can flop like a Joe Smith. I don't think that most GM's will realize that the ability is there regardless of playing time, just as we do. We are one of the selected few. "Ewing produced last year. Therefore, fans will have higher expectations. Bulls fans will not rush to see Olajuwon as much, as he has not produced as much over the past few seasons. The Sonics have a rising star in Rashard Lewis, something the average Sonic fan did not know last season. Vin Baker played well in the Olympics, and seems happy with the team." So, are you in agreement that if Dream can produce then fans will come out and support him? If that is the case that we just have to disagree on rather or not that he can play healthy. It is true that the Sonics have a good core of players but I fully recall the Sonics had a season ticket sales surge right after they sign Ewing. "At 100%, Hakeem Olajuwon could still be one of the top centers in the entire NBA. Remember last year? I think he scored 28 points against Sacramento one game. You are assuming that he'll stay healthy all year long? Dangerous and naive assumption." Are you saying that I think Olajuwon could be one of the top ten centers because he scored 28 points against Sacramento in one game? I have not make any reference to that Sacramento game in my prior posts; you must have me confused with someone else. What I did say was he could still be one of the top ten centers when he score about 14 points, 9 rebounds and 1 plus blocks. These modest goal was achieved by Ewing thus I think a younger Olajuwon could do it. Dangerous and naïve are a little bit too strong of words for our differences in opinions. I could say you are making a treacherous and uneducated guess that Olajuwon cannot play healthy when there is a glaring example of Ewing. But I rather say that we have a disagreement on Olajuwon's ability to play healthy this season. "If Dream's only going to improve the Bulls' record by a tiny bit, why would they get him? To get a few more fans for one measly season? IF Fizer pans out or if they get another young guy in return, they will all the more attendance over an extended period of time? And, as one fan already mentioned, the Bulls have high attendance regardless. They will not give up a possible future for one season with Hakeem Olajuwon." The Bulls might want Dreams for the same reason they signed Mercer and wanted Smith, furthermore Dream can actually play. I seriously doubt that Fizer will pan out at small forward. As far as Fizer's trade value is concerned, we just have to disagree if Dream can play health and what value a healthy Dream holds. It will not be 1 season of Olajuwon, I think Dream will play beyond this season at a lesser salary. If the Bulls have high attendance regardless then why bother to waste money on players like Mercer and Smith? [This message has been edited by rblh (edited October 30, 2000).] [This message has been edited by rblh (edited October 30, 2000).]
The Bulls are looking long-term---they are not worried about attendance or this years win-loss record---they want to continue developing their young talent. Fizer has a chance to be a very good player in this league---and he just might be able to play full-time with Brand. No way the Bulls trade him for anything or anyone short of a Miles or Odom like talent at this point in the season. Period. ------------------
Miller is probably toast. Lots of teams wanted him, and still want him. Scuttlebutt says we'll get a 1st rounder from the Celts or the Nuggets for him. thats why he signed. ------------------
You know what is so surprising about this post? Not one comment from OP/POPS. Does he know something that we don't and is vowed to secrecy? Come on Pops - what's your take on this scoop. ------------------
Wohoo! A Bulls fan to support me! I was getting tired of typing post after post! Oh, one more thing... Does Pops need to comments on every damn thing that goes on involving trade speculation? I mean, I love the guy but we're taking this a bit too far. He doesn't know everything, even though his posts seem to reflect that. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com
Here´s a cap-challenged idea, which needs someone with cap knowledge to explain if it is possible. Next year afer Hakeem´s contract expires, we will use the available space to sign Mo (or maybe Webber, for you dreamcasting people) and Shandon if he opts out. Now, AFTER we pull that off and have those guys in the bag, couldn´t we sign Hakeem and then trade him? Would his new contract count against the cap or it wouldn´t, as Shandon´s if he waits another year (bird rights) won´t? In THAT scenario trading Hakeem for something of value to us would make sense. Of course it remains to be seen how valuable a trade bait Hakeem would be after this season. ------------------ "I have posted so much that what I say must be true" [This message has been edited by Thanos (edited October 30, 2000).]
That seems like that would work, Thanos. ------------------ When you make an assumption, you make an ass out of yourself and umption. visit www.swirve.com
