I agree with thecabbage and go so far to say it is borderline suicide for the Rockets to trade away the Dream Windfall (cap space). If we lose the windfall, we lose Mo, and possibly Shandon. It is doubtful we will get that quality in return for Dream. Why even consider starting from scratch again finding a PF and SG. Besides, who has enough salaries to match Dream's in a trade. Oh that's right, Minnesota has to trade Garnett...geeze.
Okay, I got a 3 way trade to work with Real GM. Houston Gets: Kevin Garnett Vancouver Gets: Hakeem Olajuwon Minnesota Gets: Bryant Reeves Doug West Othella Harrington Carlos Rogers It works! Let's hope this happens. ------------------ RKMAN Proud believer of the 2001 World Champion Houston Astros.
Ace: I just read your article.... Why in the world does everyone think Minnesota has to trade Garnett?! So they lost 5 1st round picks and a backup, soft big man in Joe Smith. This means they are eternally screwed and must trade the second best player in the game to push a rebuilding effort? Those picks mean nothing, as with Garnett, Wally, and Brandon, the Wolves are a lock to finish in the playoffs for the next 5 years. That means they are going to trade Garnett because they can't get over losing 5 Jason Collier's? And Joe Smith might just be the most overrated player in the NBA at this point. He is a nice guy to have off your bench, but losing him isn't going to kill Minnesota. 5 draft picks and the loss of Joe Smith isn't nearly as steep a punishment as everyone is making it out to be. The pick that the Wolves used to select Sczerbiak was not their own, rather it was acquired through trade.
The Wolves are not a lock to finish in the playoffs this year, let alone the next 5. If they've locked anything up with their current team and the sanctions, they've locked up not winning a title. ------------------
I fully agree. No way Vancouver or Minnesota makes a deal for cap space alone. Rather, they would wait for offers which would offer that and good player, preferably those still under rookier contracts. As I stated in <A HREF="http://www.geocities.com/clutch34_2000">my article</A>, Steve Francis would fit that bill. That way, they would be able to get a free agent (who would be willing to come over with a guy like Steve on board), and then sign Steve under his Bird Rights. That way, they will have several good players all under contract for years due to Bird Rights. I don't necessarily say that Francis ends up in Minnesota (due to Terrel Brandon), but I could certainly see something with Steve Francis, Kevin Garnett and another team. Hmm...the Bulls and Elton Brand? As far as my willingness to part with these guys...I'm not so sure anymore. We could end up in the same boat as Minnesota is in. We do have a better supporting cast, though. The thing is...will the situation with Mo Taylor be any different with or without Garnett? Will he settle for a decent contract ot will he go to the other teams who have more money (max)? ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 28, 2000).]
Cabbage, It's funny, actually. I realize that it was not the best decision to say that Minnesota must trade Garnett. However, I don't think it's completely outragous to see them do it. The point of the article is rather to say what we would need to give up and that cap space (Dream) simply isn't enough. About Smith...I actually happen to think that he's underrated. He's not a franchise player, of course, but no one thinks he is. Most believe he's one of the worst number 1 picks ever. I think he's quite decent and could still produce. He's a great complement to the current Minnesota lineup. As far as Minnesota's chances...you really think they'll be that good? Brandon can only go down, and Wally World doesn't seem like a superstar to me. Who else do they have? Garnett is going to have to carry this team on his back with the realization that he's not going to get much help for the next five years. No cap room. No picks. No future. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 28, 2000).]
Let's say that this does go down. Where does this leave the Rockets? OUR CURRENT PLAN: PF Taylor/Thomas SF Wizard/Langhi C Dream/Cato SG Anderson/Mobley PG Francis/Norris goodie bag: a slew of draft picks over the next few years and a heap of cap room this summer. blueprint: Hakeem retires, allowing the Rockets to resign Taylor. That leaves you set at the power forward, with Thomas and Taylor. Anderson signs the next summer after acquiring his bird rights. It can be argued whether or not Cato is our center of the future, but we can use our draft picks to pick up a center (someone say, oh....180 degris the opposite of Jason Collier) and a defensive small forward. Everything fits in perfectly and our strong off-court chemistry is the glue that holds this lineup together. MAKE ACE's TRADE: PF Taylor/Thomas PF Garnett (or combo forward, whatever you want to call it)/Walt/Langhi C Cato/Collier (ugh) SG Anderson/Mobley PG Norris/CBA signee goodie bag: same slew of draft picks. blueprint: Things don't look too great in this version of the Rockets. Without the cap space, Taylor is gone. Point guard is much weaker, with Norris starting. Anderson might also be gone this summer with the lack of chemistry. Mobley? "I signed 6 years below market value because we had great chemistry and he was my best friend, and you trade him?!? Trade me!" Use the draft picks to fill in your holes. COMPARISON: Why would you want to blow everything up? Sure, Francis will never be the player Garnett is/will be, but everything else fits in so perfectly. Teams make trades to improve themselves, and even though Garnett is a great player, this doesn't do much for us.
One more thing... I don't see the right combination for Dream, as Cabbage and I seem to agree that: 1) Overpaid players don't make sense- We want our own guys back and we would rather have the cap space from Dream 2) Rookies, spare parts and picks will not equal $16 million- If the other team is under the cap (in order to make this technically possible), it would not make sense to trade for Dream. 3) Players on their last year of contract doesn't work, as Dream is in the same boat and probably sucks more than the other player (so no Webber). So, to me, it all comes down to a player like Garnett. Other trades have been mentioned, but they either don't make sense for us or for the other team. Still, trading for someone like Garnett will obviously be difficult and could tie us down for years to come. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com
Francis is untradable, sorry Ace, there is just no point to trading him, at least in this situation. However, I think Minnesota has to start over. They have what they have, a #4-7 seed team, and don't figure to get better because they have no caproom or draft picks. Maybe getting rid of Garnett isn't the answer, but that may be what it takes. Packages like Kidd-Marion or Iverson-Ratliff give Minnesota a #4-7 seed team, what they already have. They would be making a pointless switch. If they are going to rebuild, do it fully, like I said in my proposed trade. ------------------
Situation A: Rockets trade for Garnett. Worst Case turn of Events- Shandon leaves due to lack of chemistry, as proposed by Cabbage. Cuttino's unhappy. Signed for chump change to play with friend and gets stabbed in the back. Mo Taylor leaves, as we no longer have cap space. Does this make the trade worth it? No. Obviously. Best Case turn of Events- Shandon adapts and so does Cuttino. We now have solid players at each position, and it Cato develops all the better. Our weak area would be at the point, but would it matter that much? Moochie could play here, and so can Cuttino. Pretty decent, IMO. All we need is for our other positions to make up for PG shortcomings. Is Mo Taylor willing to wait for Bird Rights? I wouldn't count on it, though. Situation B: Rockets keep current lineup. Worst Case turn of Events- Mo Taylor leaves anyway, by which we can sign Anderson to a big contract. Or, Shandon leaves and we sign Taylor. Would both leave? Pretty much the same as with Garnett, except in this case we would have cap room? Would we have a realistic chance at Webber? Best Case turn of Events- Mo Taylor signs for decent contract and Shandon decides to wait a year. But, if Taylor plays well shouldn't he be looking for the max? Won't teams offer him that? I am seriously doubting whether Taylor returns. So, Taylor would have to be playing decent or he wouls have to like Houston loads, while Shandon would have to wait a year. That's the best case. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 28, 2000).]
There's alot of talk here regarding whether the Rockets could get Garnett by trading Hakeem. These are the real questions: 1) Does Minnesota really believe that the loss of five 1st round draft picks will seriously hurt their team in the long run? 2) Does Minnesota think they can attract a marquee free agent (Webber, Finley) if they clear cap room? If the answer is to both is yes, then by all means the Rockets should make an offer of Hakeem + all of the draft picks that we have accumulated over the last few years for Garnett. This trade would give Minnesota a chance to clear cap room next year and pursue a free agent. It would also give them the option of either using all those draft picks on a slew of role players or it would give them an opportunity to trade all the draft picks for one lottery pick. While losing Garnett is depressing, it could be a transaction that keeps the TWolves competitive. If the answer is yes to #1 and no to #2, then trading Garnett for Hakeem makes less sense. The TWolves will then demand a star quality player (under contract) in return for Garnett. Hakeem would have to prove he can be a consistent contributor for the TWolves, and I don't think they would be that naive. While the draft picks would be something they would desire, the cap space Hakeem's retirement provides is no benefit. If the answer is no to #1 and yes to #2, then the proposed trade is a little more logical than in the previous scenario. However, one wonders why the TWolves would trade one marquee player in order to sign another. The only reason I can think is that a marquee player signed today is less expensive than Garnett and the extra cash might allow them to pursue one more 2nd tier free agent. However, they might see having all those draft picks as a burden, not a benefit. Obviously, if the answer to both questions is no, then this trade won't happen. Period. ------------------
Do you think Wally and Brandon are that much better than the supporting cast we have? I wouldn't think so, really. So if the Wolves would be a lock for the next five years, why can't we with Garnett on the squad? We even have draft picks available. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com
If a trade were inevitable, I would propose the following trade after December: Houston trades Hakeem Olajuwon(16,000,000) to Chicago. Chicago trades Brad Miller(4,000,000) to Houston, Chicago trades Steve Goodrich (316,969 - this is a throw in to match salary) to Houston. Chicago trades Marcus Fizer(2,562,000) to Clippers, Clippers trades their next year's #1 pick to Houston. What the Bulls get: They get the high profile player that they have been seeking all summer long. If they are willing to pay player like Ron Mercer 5.5 Millions and Joe Smith 6.5 Millions (according to the rumors), imagine how much they are willing to pay for Olajuwon. They will also get the capspace either next year (if they decided not to extend his contract) or few years later. Furthermore, they already have Brand at power forward so Marcus Fizer (who is really a power forward) do not really fit in their rotation. As for Brad Miller, he has an option to go to any team he want after December therefore Chicago is not really losing anything of significant value. What the Clippers get: A power forward that they wanted in this year's draft. What the Rockets get: A capable backup center, a high #1 draft pick and enough capspace to sign Mo Taylor (he can only ask for 7M max) next year. According to http://rocketdavo.tripod.com/ we have about 11,594,741 (after subtracting Bullard's projected salary and Drews' salary). Therefore we can afford both Miller and Taylor. We still need to deal with Anderson, hopefully we can sign him to the mid level exception ~ 4.5 for a year until his full bird's right.
Sumtomic, Question number two doesn't apply as the Wolves will be looking for two things: 1) A star (underpaid) player 2) Cap Space Cap space, we already agreed, won't be enough. The 'star player' would be resigned under bird rights, and the cap space could possibly be used for another star. That's why I think players like Francis or Brand would attract interest. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com
We won't trade Steve Francis, so forget it. He and Cat and Shandon are too tight. I think looking at New York is the right direction. My scenario, however, might depend on what David Stern has to say. 1. NEW YORK KNICKS receive Hakeem Olajuwon and Mo Taylor and William Avery. 2. MINNESOTA TIMBERWOLVES receive Allan Houston and Marcus Camby and Charlie Ward. 3. HOUSTON receives Kevin Garnett. Throw around some #1 picks to make it work. OR... 1. KNICKS get Dream, Mo. 2. KINGS get Camby, Houston. 3. ROCKS get re-signed and traded Webber. Throw around some #1 picks to make it work. Mo named NY as one of the teams he would like to play for. The Knicks almost grabbed him last year. When Dream's contract runs out, they could have cap space to pay Mo. Hakeem will get a modest pay-day for modest minutes. Sacramento or Minnesota will take care of a problem. I mentioned Sacramento in case they realize the troubles they're about to have in re-signing CWebb. Minnesota? Obviously, if they decide to move their franchise player. The way to make either scenario work? Giving up some picks to Sacramento or to Minnesota. The Rockets and the Knicks have them in abundance. Question: Will Stern allow us to move Mo? We signed him in a wink-wink anyway; why not wink-wink his ass to Stern's cuddled favorite team? The East needs a non-suck team anyway, right? The Knicks will be in the hunt again, right? Let's move Hakeem while we can, if he so wants. Loyalty schmoyalty. The party's over here for him anyway. Let him go have fun. He saw what happened to Patrick, he feels rejuvenated. Fine. Let him go. Get something back. ------------------
Ace, why do you assume it would take Francis to get Garnett? A three way trade could get around that. Secondly, we have over the max in capspace next offseason. The projected cap is $44 million with a maximum salary of $11 million for guys like Mo. That would give us $16 million in capspace, so we could give Mo eleven, trade Los and Walt, and then give Webber 11. That's just hypothetical and not really part of this thread, but since you said we can only give Mo 7, I thought I'd mention that. Also, Doc Rocket must be a part of the team in some way. A relative of mine is best friends with a minority owner of the Spurs, and her friend took her to LA on the team plane one time for a game against the Lakers. She told me that the team all sat in one section of the plane, while the owners, media, etc all sat together on the another side of the plane. I don't know where assistant coaches, trainers, equipment guys, etc fit in on this, but you can bet Doc Rocket is a real part of the team. ------------------ [This message has been edited by NewGuy (edited October 28, 2000).]
rblh, I don't think that Hakeem Olajuwon is the player they had in mind. I don't think they're looking to clear cap space, as they already have it. They signed Brad Miller over the offseason knowing what he would mean to their cap. No sense trading him. They would trade Fizer, but for something significant. No way they just give him up just because he doesn't necessarily fit in the rotation. They drafted him knowing this already. Houston, would they go for it? With the Arena issue coming up, this trade would not bring an instant big name to Houston. What does a draft pick mean to the average fan? I doubt they do this. The Clippers would probably agree, as you said they already had Fizer in mind. ------------------ Nederland 2002 Garnett a Rocket? Read our latest column at ClutchTown.com [This message has been edited by Ace (edited October 28, 2000).]
God Maria Schriver is ugly. So is her mom. Anyway, if Dream does go, he may as well be used in an actual net gain. If he were accompanied by Francis out the door, sheez, the entire team will call 'bullsh1t' on Rudy's feel good framework. Cuttino - enraged, Mo Taylor... who really cares, Shandon - pretty peeved, etc. etc. All of the niche players have been acquired and shaped to accompany Francis. He is of course not going to be traded. Take a snapshot of the NBA right now. Who's tradeable? Iverson? Houston? Perhaps Vin Baker? I'll side with cabbage on the Garnett thingey. He's not available just b/c Smith might be gone. LOL. If and when Carlos leaves next year, I'll tar & feather the first Minnesota fan to assume that the Rockets all of a sudden have to trade Francis. Sheez. I like a mix somehow of Thanos and the NewGuy's intuitions. Again, who's available? Dikembe? I'm particularly fond of centers that actually rebound, and may be younger than Dream (there's no proof of this). Hou: Acquires Dikembe Atl: Acquires Iverson? Dream? + players? They suck either way and Dike will probably walk next year. Phi: Olajuwon + Dermarr? People will argue that there's no advantage in trading Dream for Dike, but Dike has actually played in a healthy condition lately; meanwhile, Dream has felt like he was going to play in a healthy condition for the past two years (which of course, he hasn't). Mo would probably leave, but I like KT more anyway. Besides, if Cato played minutes at the 4, it'd be fun watching Steve dribble through the bamboo forest. ------------------ "Everyone I know has a big but... come on Simone, let's talk about your but."
The voting ends in a little more than a week, it would probably take more than that to make a deal like this. So I don't see the arena deal as an issue, as long as the media doesn't get a hold of this before the referendum. ------------------
