No man the Jordan ship has sailed in 2011. Also depends on how long he plays pass his prime I can see his career average points dropping below Kobe and others.
I agree with you, but it seems the rest of the basketball public or at least a very large portion of it, doesn't. Don't know how it happened, but LeBron seems to be universally regarded as top 2 in the goat discussion for the past few years. Imo jordan, kareem, russell are definitely ahead of LeBron regardless of the outcome of this season. Those three were not only transcendent players, but were winners who dominated their league and rivals. LeBron is great, but I have him 4th or 5th all time even with another championship.
They always bring out that LeBron plays with xyz so he has easier. Nobody mentiones that LeBron elevates their game so it seems like hes playing with alltimes. What did Kyrie and Love do different than CP/Westbrook/Eric Gordon after LeBron left? What did AD do different to CP/WB before LeBron paired with him? Why does everybody want to play with Bron and nobody wants to play with Harden? Some tough to swallow pills for stans
We gotta stop hating and r this sums up harden in the playoffs I didn’t want to accept it but I gotta. harden is not the THE guy we thought he could be... plenty chances to prove you got what it takes to push yourself to another level. enough with the excuses. Harden isn’t built for the big time. And it hurts me so much to admit it.
To be fair, I think you are both right. LeBron has been better than Harden in the playoffs (I don't think this should be a controversial take) AND LeBron has had far superior supporting casts than Harden (except for his first stint in Cleveland, and last year in LA, when he couldn't even make the playoffs, lol). Honestly, I think LeBron's primary advantages over Harden are purely physical. He is just a bigger, more physically dominant player, which helps his ability to take over games when playoff defenses restrict your usual offense. LeBron has been able to elevate his game in the playoffs over the last 7 or so postseasons, but let's not act like he didn't have struggles in the playoffs in Cleveland and his first year in Miami. I think LeBron has also learned how to coast a bit in the regular season, and then turn it on in the playoffs, which is a luxury Harden does not have due to weaker supporting players.
This is a dumb post. No one is saying Harden is better than LeBron. Lebron has clearly been the best player in the NBA, post-Jordan. Also, Harden has never had someone in their prime be a teammate. But fine. You and @GreatOne1978 want the other side of the argument? LeBron had Wade and Bosh. At that point in time, Wade and Bosh were still damn good; both players could easily be the first option on any other team. LeBron had Kyrie and Love, two players clearly better than CP3 and the next guy or Westbrook and the next guy. LeBron now has Anthony Davis, literally someone who can be considered to be a top 5 player in the NBA today. And the Lakers' "others" showed up this playoffs. When you have Rondo looking like Steph Curry out there, it's game over. So, who did Harden have? An aging Dwight who, at that point in time, couldn't be considered to be the main option. Harden had old CP3; good and crafty, but still had never made it to a Conference Finals even with Blake and DeAndre in their primes. Now he has Westbrook. A former MVP who, by all accounts, can be put up there with Rose for worst MVP of all-time. The dude can't shoot and could be completely left open on offense. Can you leave Wade, Bosh, Kyrie, Love or AD open on offensive? HELL NO. Don't even get me started on the Rockets' "others." They're so irrelevant that I'd be wasting time talking about them. Back to the main point: What people have a problem with, is the fact that Harden gets heavily criticized for not winning a title, despite playing against a dynasty. And the media isn't willing to point that out, only arguing that "LeBron beat GS so Harden must suck" or "Kawhi beat GS so he's a better player than Harden." Harden has never had the wealth of riches that LeBron has had or that Golden State has had. LeBron has never had to go through the Golden State Warriors and then the winner of the Eastern Conference.
dude is calling him a 2nd class star tho...like, that’s straight up trolling Harden has had very mediocre supporting casts, especially compared to what other champions routinely have had. Has he had Knicks or Hawks level rosters? No, but people need to stop acting like he’s been blessed with tremendous help. Most of these rosters overachieved because of Harden’s greatness. The 14-15 roster with all those injuries should’ve never seen 56 wins and a WCF appearance. In that WCF, Harden averaged 28, 8, and 6 on 47/43/87 shooting splits. His help? Josh Smith shot 39% from the field, 42% from the line, and had 17 assists-14 turnovers geriatric Jason Terry shot 38% from the field and 30% from three Corey Brewer shot 34% from the floor Terrance Jones shot 38% geriatric Prigioni shot 33% that is 5 guys out of our 9 man rotation that were straight up garbage, but because Harden had a terrible game 5 after dropping 45 in game 4, everybody blamed him Everybody had the 16-17 team as a 1st round exit at best, but instead they win 55 games and make it to game 6 of the 2nd round against the Spurs. The 18-19 team started out 11-14 and had major injury issues. Harden had to put a legendary stretch to get that team out of the water. That was not a championship level roster, it was propped up by Harden. His co-star in Chris Paul was nowhere to be found until game 6 in that 2nd round series against the Warriors. Nobody is winning a title with the Westbrook we saw in this year’s playoffs. The 1 time he truly had a championship level roster, he was about to beat 1 of the greatest teams of all-time and win a title. If Harden is a 2nd class star, how come he and a 33 yo CP3 were about to beat Steph, KD, Klay, and Draymond? we can all agree that Harden is not Lebron...there’s a reason why Lebron had all that hype in high school and coming into the league Did anyone see Harden as an elite level prospect? He can’t just raise up over the defense like KD or bully his way to the rim against anyone like Lebron. He can’t shoot it like Steph. He’s come much farther than anyone ever thought possible.
dude people trying to compare harden to lebron need to get their head check. Its not even close.. Harden is a loser and just doesnt have any heart or fight in him. Lebron is on a whole different level when compared to JH. it is what it is. Just accept it
i don't have a problem with 2011 eliminating him from the jordan conversation. it was something jordan would never do. i think 2016 got about half of it back because it was arguably the best series anyone ever had. and now i think longevity has to mean something. 16 elite years, 10 finals, a title with 3 teams would have to start adding up at some point.
russell is practically impossible to rank. his stats wouldn't get him in the top 10. his winning would make him the clear GOAT. he played in the early league, which is always hard to rate (mikan doesn't even get mentioned in all-time rankings). how to you rank him properly? i think he's in the 3-10 group with all the other usuals. kareem has too many mvp seasons where he barely won anything to be in the jordan/lebron group. especially considering how generally pathetic the teams in the 70's were, it didn't take a lot of wins to stand apart from the pack, and he couldn't do it. maybe his teammates just sucked, but it seems weird he couldn't dominate winning in a mediocre decade with some talent in the ABA and when he was the clear-cut best player. if russell is going to be way up the ranking, kareem's lack of winning would have to be held against him. i just don't see anyone on the impact tier that jordan and lebron are, especially as go to guys who score 30+ in big moments.
They would if blocks were tracked. He had crazy boards, blocks and high assist numbers. He just wasn’t a big time scorer. Boards, blocks and assists...all elite for his position.
I agree with most of what you said. Overall we have always had a weaker supporting cast a lot due to some bad luck, cheap ownership, and untimely injuries go against him. However, 2017 is such a painful year because I fully believe 2017 CP3 is better than any player Lebron ever played with. It is a shame he got injured cuz that was really our year. We blew everyone out and made it look easy. I would take CP3 and Clint or CP3 and Ariza or CP3 and Gordon over Kyrie and Love or wade and Bosh. Kyrie, Bosh and Love might be two of the most overrated guys who ever played. Put up ridiculous numbers on trash teams that never translated to wins. I would definitely take CP3, Gordon, Ariza, PJ, Clint, Green and Luc over Cleveland’s roster that year. That team without Harden probably wins 50 games.
I think it will move him equal to Jordan. The GSW 3-1 comeback counts for two. Going home and orchestrating that ring was crazy. If he gets one more after this year, then there's a serious discussion about him being the GOAT for sure. EDIT: Forgot to mention, he has to win FMVP for this to be valid. Rings don't count when comparing players' legacies unless you're the best performer on the team during the series.
Funny, but I seem to remember LeBron flailed woefully out of the playoff picture in his first year in the Western Conference - to the point he had to sit out the rest of the season to save face when he knew he couldn't make the playoffs. LeBron > Harden in the Playoffs is not even a question. Anyone who suggests that needs to get their head checked. Harden > LeBron in the regular season and has been quite clearly the best player in the league the past few seasons is not in question. You should edit your post to clarify what you're stating.
LeBron definitely has more to lose with the outcome of these finals if the Lakers are upset. Not much for him to gain due to the relatively easy path the Lakers have had to this championship.
Lebrons never going to be MJ. Ppl talk that GOAT stuff but there is a difference in being the greatest player and having a great career. Lebron isn't even the best player on his team currently. The Lakers have been riding AD the whole postseason
Plus he didn't have that great of a career either. His whole career was constantly forming super teams and then abandoning them when things start to go south. Without super teammates he couldn't even make the playoffs.
