How many players will go international, what is the impact on the NBA?

I heard coach Sloan is going Euro as well.

 

This is not correct. That is $5 million net income. The NBA salary is gross income. Federal taxes, state taxes, NBA player's union fees, NBA retirement fund fees, and agent fees come out of that NBA salary.

The salary in Turkey is after everything is deducted and goes directly to his pocket. You have to figure that in to your analysis. Also, you are not figuring in that the salaries are going to be reduced under the new CBA.

I mean, ESPN keeps saying over and over that the owners are not agreeing to any new deal without at least a 1/3 pay cut, even to existing contracts. So, figure in the fact that the salary in Turkey is net, and that he will see a big pay cut coming up in the NBA. Guess what? The salary in Turkey is almost the same as what he would make in the NBA.

So, actually, there is hardly any salary cut at all. There is always a huge exaggeration as to how much more players make in the NBA than in Europe, and after the new CBA those exaggerations will be even more exaggerated.

Remember, that European clubs also pay for the player's house, car, and living expenses as standard pay. This is not even counted in their listed incomes. Some players get more than that. Williams gets a chef, a personal trainer, an interpreter, a chauffeur, a butler and maid, etc. all free from the club.

If you factor that in, then it is equal or in fact more than what he will make with the Nets after the lockout ends.

 

It's actually quite a pay cut from what he was earning when he was with Barca.

 

Nobody knows what the final pay cut will be for NBA players but it won't be $750 million, that was the owners starting point for negotiations.

Let me ask you this, if Williams is getting such a great deal then how come Williams agent and the NBPA aren't letting people know that? Everything that has been reported says a deal worth $5M. Don't you think that the NBPA would like to educate the public and owners to show them that there is a viable option overseas? If Williams was making anything approaching what he does in the NBA then the NBPA would be telling everyone that would listen that it's an equal deal and you can bet that they'd be threatening for players to sign there. That's not happening.

The original reports were that Williams would be paid $200K per month. Subsequent reports said the deal could be "worth" up to $5M. You've made the assumption that Williams is being paid $5M and therefore the true worth of the deal is much more. That's not what has been reported. Where did you see that Williams was being paid $5M or that the worth of his deal was near what he makes in the NBA?

Parts of your argument seem to contradict. On one hand you are saying that the overseas offers are nearly equal to the high end salaries in the NBA. Then you turn around and say that the owners are going to enforce a 33% paycut in the NBA. So if Euro leagues are so competitive salary wise then how are you expecting the owners to be able to win a 33% paycut? The only way the owners have that kind of leverage is because there's no options available that are anywhere close to the NBA. My guess is that after this all plays out the owners will come away with a very good deal for them and that will be because even that reduced deal is still way better than the players can do anywhere else.

If non-NBA teams could afford to pay NBA like salaries then most ever FA in the world would be using European teams as a bargaining chip when they negotiate with the NBA. That simply doesn't happen. Why do you think that is? NBA agents are too ethical to bluff?

Even the lower end guys like Sonny Weems and Songaila are only signing 1 year deals overseas. Those guys just need the guarenteed income next season but they aren't good enough for teams to be willing to sign them and allow them an out when the lockout is over. They ended up taking the guarenteed salary but they'll try and be back in the NBA soon as they can.

Also curious as to why you'd list Agent Fees as a cost specific to playing in the NBA. You don't think that Deron Williams agent got paid for negotiating a deal in Turkey?

Let's also factor in much worse conditions for arenas, travel and hotels. How about the difference in security for the players during games?

The beauty of this discussion is that it will be proved out in just a few months. If you are correct then they'll be a mass exidus of the NBA stars and the owners will be forced to cave in. On the other hand, if I'm correct then the owners will get a great deal and all of the players will be scrambling to get back to the NBA as fast as they can.

Once a non-NBA team gets into a bidding war (let alone wins one) with the NBA for a player then those leages are competitive financially. That day hasn't arrived and I don't believe that it will for a very long time if ever.

 

You think any nba team will try to void out a guy like deron williams. If they do someone else will give him a max contract the next day. There are a handful of impact players in the league when you have one you don't let himgo. The trail blazers offered 9 mil to greg oden.

If the majority of teams were in big trouble why are teams being bought for a price much higher than their forbes estimates.

 

NBA listed contracts are gross. Agent fees, NBA union fees, NBA retirement fund fees, federal and state taxes come out of that listed NBA "salary".

The salaries in Europe are listed in net income. In the amount of cash the player deposits into his bank account and keeps, after all the payments and deductions have come out of it.

European teams also pay for the house, the car, the driver, the living expenses of the players and their families. That is not even included in the reported salary figures. You know, when Dominique Wilkins played in Greece, he got a large mansion made out of marble, on the ocean for free. Paid for by the club. Hell, they even paid for his kids college expenses. That's right, they set up a fund and paid for their college fees.

I remember even once Tom Gugliotta got an offer in Greece where he would get a big yacht and a crew for Mediterranean sailing, for free.

All Americans see is "so and so signed for $2 million in Europe". Without being able to grasp the reality of what that means, especially that in most cases it is also actually in euros, which are worth more, and US sports media usually never mentions that.

Of course, in the case of Turkish clubs, they pay in US dollars. But contracts like in Spain or Greece, are in euros.

NBA fans cannot seem to grasp that an NBA salary is at most half of what it looks like, compared to a European salary. Take the net that Deron Williams would make in the NBA, not the gross, and get back to me.

 

The NBA can only void a contract in the case of injury. So if Deron Williams has a career threatening injury then yes I think that NJ would gladly void the deal. It's not like NJ is looking to void Williams deal, in fact the exact opposite is true they want to extend him. In the NBA he still gets paid if he has a catastrophic injury.

Also realize that we are talking about one of the truely Elite players in the NBA. How about the rest of the league? Unlike Deron Williams there's lots of contracts that teams would love to get out of.

The rank and file NBA player doesn't have the options that Deron Williams does. Williams is most likely in good enough financial shape that not getting paid for a year wouldn't kill him. That's not true for most of the NBA players.

Are you trying to imply that the teams aren't losing money? Even the NBPA doesn't argue that fact. Their disagreement is over how much money teams are actually losing.

 

There is no union collectively bargaining for non-NBA players so each player is free to cut his own deal. You have no idea whatsoever the terms of Willaims contract in Turkey.

Deron Williams is paid a salary in excess of $15M in the NBA. That is worth more in total worth than $5M.

One of the major flaws in your argument is that you sited the idea that NBA owners are going to reduce salary by 33% and used that as your basis for saying the salaries are near equal. Even if the owners got a 33% reduction is salaries it wouldn't be a straight reduction where each player received 66% of his former salary. It would be a 33% reduction in salary overall but the stars are still going to make their money. Not only wouldn't Deron Williams get a 33% pay cut as you suggested, he'll actually end up getting a higher salary after next season. The reduction is salary will come from the middle and lower classes of players. You won't see teams giving out middle class exception money randomly as you have in the past. Guys like Williams, CP3, Lebron and Kobe will still make their money.

Exactly how much do you think Deron Williams is paying in union fees and retirement fund?

If you're going to include drivers, houses etc, then shouldn't you also factor in the additional off-court revenue that is available to players here? Shouldn't you also factor in the lower travel and hotel standards and the greater security risks of playing overseas? Shouldn't you also include his NBA pension and benefits?

I'll ask the question a second time. If you really think that salaries are close to competitive then why don't agents use non-NBA teams as leverage in negotiations? Who was the last high level NBA player that chose to sign overseas? Who is the last one that even threatened to? So if salaries are near equal then why is that? Even Rudy Fernandez turned down a chance to go back to Europe. Fernandez was offered a deal with Real Madrid that averaged $4.3M in salary. So you are telling me that Fernandez turned down a deal that is just under the $5M that Williams is suppose to get (and that you claim is equivilent to Williams $15M Salary)? So Fernandez is turning down just under what you equate to a $15M NBA deal? Is he an idiot? Why would he stay here and take such a huge paycut? I don't think anyone will try and argue that Fernandez will get anything approaching double digit millions after next season.

Since you're the one making the argument that the deals are near equal, why don't you calculate the net worth of Willams deal and get back to us? Seems only fair that you do the leg work to back up your claims.

 

Lets talk about the idea of forming super teams to tour China and other NBA friendly cities. This seems like a better idea than having 450 NBA players going for like 20 euroleague jobs.

I bet everyone can make some money and boost interest in the game by having a tour where there were 4 superteams that played each other.

The major problem I see is that the players would be concerned about injury and would not try very hard, but if they could get insurance it would be a win for everyone, including the owners (eventually).

 

China doesn't want NBA no more now that Yao has retired. NBA player should tour America.

 

I bolded the bottom line. Would be similar to the All-Star game. But for fans in China who don't have the opportunity to watch NBA games in person (or even view them in their time zone), it would be huge. I don't think much money would be made.

 

Unions aren't all bad. There was a time when unions were critical to the survival of the middle-class economy. But I agree that there are few places where the neoteric unions are useful.

 

I'll never understand the whole net of taxes figure. Do they really pay the tax for every country in which he plays in (in America you get taxed by every state you play in, so I'm assuming you pay taxes for each country in Europe), and turn around and pay his tax as a US citizen? Since he doesn't actually pay the foreign tax, he would be getting double taxed, but supposedly the European teams pay all of that. Deron Williams doesn't know what he will owe tax wise on his US Return, so does that mean the club pays regardless of what he files? I've been interested in that for a while.

We know European teams struggle financially, and that they have often had a hard time paying players. It will be a viable option one day, but not today.

 

Gentlemen

My business contacts have indicated that places like Greece, Italy and Spain are in fantastic financial straits at the moment.

They have bundles of cash to lavish on basketballers (who can also geld to earn their keep).

 

BTW Williams still has to pay taxes, no matter where he plays.

I think a few players will go and it will have zero effect on the NBA, any league that limits the number of foreign players is not going to be all that great.

The best players play regardless of nationality.

DD

 

You ask, why don't the majority of NBA players sign for european teams when the salaries are near equal?
1. The NBA is certainly a better league than any other in Europe
2. There is a small number of european teams that can afford themselves a multi-million deal with one player
3. There is a limited number of free roster spots for non-EU players in european national leagues

Fernandez will have the chance to play guaranteed minutes on the SG spot for the NBA champions, Dallas Mavericks. Why should he get tied down for six season in Madrid when he has a 1+1 contract in Dallas?

 

You just made my point for me. If only a small number of teams can afford multi-million dollar deals for one player then they can't compete with NBA salaries. I think most everyone knows that, my question was in response to the idea that a $5M contract in Turkey is equivilent to over $15M in the NBA.
My point was that if the true values of the Euro deals were that much then you'd see guys using those offers for leverage in negotiations, but you don't.

My question about Fernandez was simply to disprove the idea that $5M in Europe is equivilent to $15M in the NBA. Everything you said abou Fernandez is true (of couse the non-EU limitation wouldn't apply) since there isn't that great of a financial difference in the offers. But, if $4.4M in Europe was truely worth just under $15M in the NBA then it would be a totally different story. There would be no way the Fernandez leaves that kind of money on the table. I was simply asking the question to make a point.

 

Lose.