I'm not asking him to score ala Artest,he isn't that kind of player,but I think he is capable of scoring around 9 points a game. The defense and intangibles aren't enough against stronger teams. He isn't Chuck Hayes,that's why he should be getting more than 2-3 or 6's a game. Whenever Shane shoots well,the chances of winning go up a great deal. He also cuts to the basket without the ball which compensates to some extent for his lack of ball handling skills. It's not too much to expect him to do some more on offense,his ankle is apparently not an issue anymore either.
exactly. i mean, unless shane makes us the best defensive team in the league, which we aren't, he shouldn't be playing this much. is he an all-nba defender this year for us to ignore his 38% shooting and 6 points a game? i mean unless his impact on defense is so drastic as people say, then sure, he should play. but last time i checked: we're NOT the best defensive team in the L. we're not even close. so again, unless his defensive impact is as kobe's or lebron's on offense, then he shouldn't be playing this much.
I wish I had the time to look up all the stats needed just to show you're wrong once again. 1. "harpring had plays ran for him so he was a threat" AND!?!?!? He can run a bazillion plays and it means jack if he's only finishing games with 2-4 points. The fact that shane DIDNt have plays ran for him and still outscored him says a lot actually... 2. you're arguing that harpring/ak had a bigger impact than shane because they guarded tmac and shane didn't guard a big name player? That also means jack since tmac was like the leading scorer every game. All that means is they were busy, it certainly doesn't mean they outplayed anyone and it definitely doesn't prove they had an impact, at least not one favorable to the Jazz since Tmac was still doing his thing. You're saying higherworkload= bigger impact... But its possible to do a lot of work and not provide a positive impact, or any impact. It's also possible to have a small workload and provide an impact. Answer me this, if you're pushing against a wall with all your strength, and it never moves, but i push a tennis ball with my finger one inch. Who had the bigger workload? You. And who had the greatest impact? ME!!! 3. Deron probably played like 37-38 mins a game, maybe more, and sometimes WITH AK on the floor, so then how much time did AK actually spend running point? 1 minute, 2 minutes?? I can say with certainty i watched every game, every minute, maybe you did as well, but it sounds like you watched it surrounded by Jazz fans.
The absence of Tracy and the mistakes/lack of defense by Wafer as well as Barry's age leads to heavy minutes for Shane but he still should able to do more than get 6.5 points a game.
I dont mean this to be a jerk, but is english a second language for you? If it is, then I apologize and understand why you're not really understanding what I'm writing. If it's not, then you need to slow down and read everything completely and carefully before replying. I said chuck CAN get a stop here and there against the taller forwrds/centers, just like he got a stop HERE AND THERE against KG this season, but overall he can't keep up for a whole game because the height difference is too much for him to overcome consistently. He didn't shut down KG for the night like he could have done to other PFs, he just got timely stops at the end.
Right now Battier is just plain there occupying a position helping out sometimes, sometimes not quite so much. Leaning toward calling him garbage for the moment. Battier scored 14 PPG his rookie season. THATS where the argument comes from. Its the fact he's shown he's CAPABLE of it, but has gotten more reluctant and pussied out over the years. Battier NOW should be what he was 2 years ago, a 10 PPG guy who takes the smart shots and defers when he has to. Now's he totally acting like he's allergic to offense . He's now become a Ben Wallace, and really thats a waste and a shame. Battier's asset is of course his calming influence on defense, he spaces the floor, and he lets other better offensive players get more shots. I'm telling you right now me and you can go to the local park or gym court after not playing for 5 years, 50 pounds heavier, and mimic Shane Battier's style of offense. I did it the other day - I stepped back AWAY as far as I could (I "spaced the flooor") to allow a guy on my team room to take his man off the dribble. But I was a "threat" from the outside if he wanted to do the kick-out pass for an open jumper. But really truly I was already gassed and didnt really want the ball cuz my fat ass was huffing and puffing. Basically Battier is playing the out of shape old fat ass man offense and he's better than that.
so Shane wouldnt play as much if tmac was healthy?!?!? Please stop man.. Last year, with tmac healthy : shane over 35 MPG This year, with no tmac : shane under 35 MPG.
Great post...Those who support Battier try and back everyone into a rhetorical corner with their circular arguments. If he has a good tangible game, they are quick to point to the same box score they criticize when people apply it to Shane on a regular basis. On the other hand, if he doesn't have a good tangible game, they are quick to say that you can't measure his contributions that way. This way Battier can't have a bad game no matter what. It's a win-win for them. Morey isn't God. He's made a lot of good moves, but trading the #8 pick for Battier was a mistake in my view - especially since the team hasn't "won now" like they were supposed to a few seasons ago. Drafting Joey Dorsey was another mistake when better projects with size like DeAndre Jordan (who's played well for the Clippers) were available. If the Rockets just tell us what variables they use when measuring Battier's contributions to this team, we can easily run a multi-variate regression model and post the results. As I've said before, quantitative analysis is not the best way to look at bball players. It's driven by theory. The model keeps getting adjusted until the desired outcome is reached. The desired outcome is driven by the original theory. There is no way for a quantatitative model to take into account intangibles like Battier's inability to handle a basketball, his lack of athleticism, his physical decline, or the fact that he just likes to stand in the corner on offense. The point I was trying to make is that Battier needs to score more for this team to be successful in the playoffs. 6.5 ppg @ over 30 mpg is not going to cut it. Take the Utah game for example. If Battier hits maybe two more shots, he puts more pressure on the defense and more importantly gives the Rockets a much better chance to win the game. Also, his lack of offense contributes to keeping games that should be easily won close as well. His offensive impotence is one of this teams biggest weaknesses. Reducing his mins might be the best option at this point. This is absolutely incorrect. Shane just stands in the corner usually on offense. His man has done several things that hurt the Rockets. His man basically rests on defense and saves his energy for offense or creates havoc by roaming the floor or sits in Yao lap. Since Battier can't create nor can he dribble around a guy closing out at him full speed (which is easy to do), he just stands in the corner. Also, for a guy with such a high bball iq, when his man is playing off of him and double teaming Yao, Battier hardly ever cuts to the basket for an easy two. He just stands in the corner like a kid on punishment. Does the larger n sample take into account his physical decline which has really highlighted his lack of athleticism? Those are intangibles too. Ron Artest is our top 3 point shooter this season. Also, thanks for proving my point for me that he just mostly stands in the corner. You're being very dishonest. This was the only good playoff game of his entire career. Go look at how he did the rest of that series. 7 ppg I believe it was. Also, go look at how he was torched by Dirk when played for the Griz in the post-season. He's only had 1 good playoff game out of 25. That doesn't bode well for Rockets' fans. Just answer the question: Will 6 ppg @ over 30 mpg from a guy who just stands in the corner on offense be enough to get it done in the playoffs? His playoff record indicates that the answer is no - especially if somebody else is off or having a bad shooting night. Where do those points come from? Probably not from the guy standing in the corner playing over 30 mpg. This is irrelevant, because Battier has never been the defender Bruce Bowen was. Both Battier and Bowen have declined, but the difference is that Shane still starts and plays over 30 mpg while Bowen has become a 19 mpg bench player. I should also mention James Posey, a guy who's stepped up for 2 different teams in the NBA Finals comes off the bench in NO. I don't hate anyone, I love the Houston Rockets and post-season is what's important to me. Maybe I should call you a Battier lover. Also, I'm not sure it's clear who called that timeout since coaches can call them at the end of games or the coach might've just yelled for somebody to call timeout and Battier was the first to hear him. Isn't it funny though how much lower and lower the standards for what constitutes a good game by Battier are getting? Now as long as he calls a time out at the end, he played well. Whats next? A thread being started for Battier hitting a free throw or making a good entry pass to the post?
shane scored 14 ppg on an offensively anemic memphis team. He scored 10ppg on offensively average rocket teams. He's now scoring 7 ppg on offensively ABOVE average rocket teams. see a trend?? the guy does what is needed of him, why is that hard to understand?? We dont need his offense. I agree he passes up shots, but if he passes let's say 5 opportunities a game, like 3 of those led to a better or equal opportunity, and only 2 were really blown. 2 blown opportunities isnt really much more than most players have in any given game. It's only so visible because his attempts are so low. and I dont think you get the true meaning of spacing out the floor the way the rocket's use it. It's not something that's just done by the offensive player, it also involves the defender reacting by stepping up to the potential shooter. Spacing the floor is BOTH the offensive player and defender making space, not just the shooter stepping out. And just because you were tired and resorted to that, doesn't mean Shane is also doing it. you did it because you wanted to. shane does it because the coach told him to. Funny how Battier bashers always leave oout the part where he hustles back on d, he sprints every time, beats teammates who were closer to a fast break than he was, to the scorer. I remember when we played the spurs at home last. Someone complained that shane wasn't doign anything, can't shoot, doesnt play d, got taken to the rim, etc. I had taped the game, so i went back, and literally posted play by play of what shane did every posession where he or his man had the ball..i did it over a quarter and a half. There was very little of "shane scores" or "shane steals", you know, actions that are measureable and ont he boxscore, but there was a lot of " shane shields a random defender away from a cutting teammate and the teammate gets a wide open dunk" or "shane tips the offensive board to a teammate who was positioned for a layup" and " shane's mantries to drive, shane stays in front of him, his man backs up, tries again, shane again stays in front, man decides to jack up shot, misses". We can argue about stats, +/-, intangibles, impact, etc., but it doesnt get any better than just writing what he's actually doing on the court play by play. You can't argue with that. Its somewhere in the archives if anyone wants to look for it, but i'm sure that's the pay by play for all of his games.
Kwame: You weren't effective as a basketball player and your less effective as a BBS poster. Just sit on the Millions MJ made you and leave us alone.
and that rocket river quote only applies for a job where number are all that matters, it's very faulty logic. I worked at a call center 2 years ago, part of a "team", we had different numbers crunched every month..most calls answered, most cases worked, shortest time on phones, etc. Prizes for the best numbers....BUT those prizes were to stroke the egos of those top number getters. Much like an allstar game. I never was an all-star, but i was seen as one of the best, if not the best rep in that department by the supervisor, they couldn't declare me the best since the numbers weren't there, but to those outside the department, were only the outcome mattered and not the numbers, they saw me as the top rep. Point being is that you can be valued highly if you're good at what you do and it's something that's important to others. I was highly valued because no one was as complete and error-free as i was, the all star reps were great in their respective abilities, but tht doesnt' always get it done. Sometimes you need more than high numbers. Perhaps onlookers wouldn't understand, but the people within the team, the department, will get it. In other words, the coaches/management know best
Thank God, JVG, Adelman, Fratello, and anyone else that has coached or been a NBA GM that UNDERSTANDS the value of a player like Battier is making decisions for this team. DD
Battier's career playoff averages: 33 mpg 8.2 pts 4.1 rbds .416 3-pt % Let's compare that to the defensive specialist from a multiple-championship team... Bruce Bowen's career playoff averages: 31 mpg 6.1 pts 2.7 rbds 419 3-pt % Hmmm... so Battier is a liability, while Bowen is a stud?
I don't think anyone called Bowen a stud, but I've addressed this issue a few times. Lets do it again for you. Battier has never been the defender Bruce Bowen was. Currently, both Battier and Bowen have declined, but the difference is that Shane still starts and plays over 30 mpg while Bowen has become a 19 mpg bench player. I should also mention James Posey, a guy who's stepped up for 2 different teams in the NBA Finals comes off the bench in NO.
battier has played 3 playoff series. he has not shut down one single guy. dirk torched him in the first series when he was in memphis. plus your stats are misleading. shane's minutes when he was in memphis for their playoffs was around 29-30 minutes. his minutes during his rockets playoff series have been 38-40 minutes. 10 minutes in an NBA game is a BIG DIFFERENCE. for bruce, he usually just plays around 32-33 minutes in the playoffs, with a max of 35 one playoff run. like i said, the way battier has played this year, 25-28 minutes is best for him. why don't people understand that? nobody is saying shane should be benched. he does contribute in some ways. he just cannot play too many minutes. that is all.
and they've all been 1-and-out in the playoffs with shane on those teams. what a difference shane makes huh?
Ignorance runs amok.....when you are blaming role players for playoff failures. Maybe it was really Chris Jent who led the Rockets to their first playoff title? DD
he actually shot 48% once in memphis you know? my problem is he's shooting 38% on open shots. why do people have a problem with rafer playing tons of minutes when he shot 38% and yet no problem with shane?
