What exactly are you refering to when you say i make this more difficult?? I dont have a problem with what you think he's capable of, what you quoted was my response to those posters who blame him for 3 years of playoff failures because he supposedly doesn't step up during playoffs. Or do you agree with that?
I just re-read your post, if you think i was iimplying that role players can't be clutch and only franchise players can decide games, that's not what i wrote. Role players can definitely make plays to decide games, but i specifically talked about years of failures. Not a game here and there. If role players are defining games then it means two things, like i said: 1. the teams are evenly matched, so they play to a draw and at the end one play decides it all. (if this is the case then Battier can't be blamed for 3 years of this because any one play could have turned the results around and it can easily be argued that the reasons for losing werent battier not stepping up, but someone else missing a shot, turning the ball over, taking s bad shot, etc. 2. The stars on the better team aren't coming through so that team plays at a lower level, therefore playing to a draw with the weaker team until the end where one play decides it all, which goes back to #1. (if the stars didn't come through then that has a much bigger effect than battier not scoring an extra bucket here and there. so blame him for a specific game where he did something wrong or failed to do something, but its ridiculous to do it over 3 years and several playoff games.
] kobe has definitely stepped up his game to a higher level the last few years, so i agree that kobe has been better overall, against everyone, since shane has been here. Something else though. The higher PPG, but lower FG% also points to the Rockets concentrating more on shutting down his teammates. Kobe's forced to score all the points and usually ends up with a lot, does it through too many shots, especially bad ones, so he end ups with a higher ppg but lower FG%. It's well known that the Lakers lose more when kobe gets his and no one else gets involved, and this trend became very apparent the last 2 years or so, so most teams, including houston try it. Houston has been more succesful at it than most of the league, which is why they have a winning record against them since.
RVS- you argument about shane being a overacheiver doesn't add up. You said he unathletic like he's hayes or someone. Did you know for the nba combine, he did the superman drill more than anyone else? That's 1 step dunking the ball. He did that more than guys like darius miles,richardson, kwame brown and guys like that. That drill displays strength,power, and endurance. Don't underestimate shane because he's not gotten better. That's another point I was trying to make. Shane hasn't improve any facet of his game since becoming a rocket. No matter how poilshed you are (tim duncan), you can and should get better. That's what the summer work will do for a player. Tayshaun Prince was considered a finished product, but he's added something every year offensively. It not just that, after playing in adelmans offense, you as a player have to now know where you can get scoring chances. Watch how guys like mason jr play off duncan. Look how in the post dump, watch some of the cuts, rubs, or peel off. I think u guys don't give him enough credit and I expect him to play to his potential more. When you work on something in the summer and gain confidnce in your ability, you use it. I can go and look at the 11ppg he used to score as a grizzly vs the same amount he does as a rox, its night and day. Like I said, 30% of his shots were from 3 range vs 60% now. He shot 230 ft vs 120 with the rox. That means he's getting to the rim and finishing or getting fouled. That also means he's not just camping at the 3pt line. I expect more, because I've seen him do more. Durvas, when all 3 were on the roster, I wonder how many minutes shane was playing and who was on the floor at the end of the game. I think, I'm just guessing that just like rafer, adelman doesn't really trust wafer at the end of games. No matter how well brook was playing early on, rafer would finish the games. If they get another wing and resign ron, I don't think shane will be finishing games. A guy I've thought about in a sign and trade is a guy like marion, jefferson in a trade or butler via trade.
Did you know that the NBA combine isn't taken seriously by the players or coaches? It's nowhere near as serious as the NFL combine. A lot of players, especially higher picks, don't even attend, or only do certain drills and a lot of times they dont do them full speed. There was a stat thrown out i think for last year's combine involving either Oden or Durant, which some media tried to use , but no oe paid attention for the reasons i gave. So i don't doubt at all that Shane, being shane, gave it 100%, while most of the others guys didn't. Also, if you want to get technical, that drill is primarily about endurance. Someone shorter, like Nate Robinson at the dunk contest, can do that because of great endurance, power, and strength. Someone who's 6'8, with a standing reach probably of 8'5" isn't going to need a lot of strength and power to accomplish that drill repetitively. Remember what I said about shane being NBA ready. The guy put in the work, he's done the drills, has the endurance, etc. That's another reason why he'd do well in that specific drill. The guys you mentioned, especially Miles and Kwame who are well known for their lack of work ethic, would probably not have much strength, power, OR endurance. The only advantage they would have is natural abilities, which for them is height and possibly hops, but all that means is that they can reach higher than battier. It doesn't mean that they can reach a fixed point, like the rim, more times in a row than Battier because that's based on physical endurance. Those guys aren't in shape NOW, they sure as hell weren't back then.
I agree that Battier hasn't really been an "impact" player. Last night Battier basically closed out that game. I'd like to see Battier impact games a little more like what we saw last night. He doesn't always need to hit the game winner but I wish he'd DO something in crunch time to step it up. "clutch" players seem to come up big when the team needs them. Battier hasn't been a "clutch" player very often. You don't have to be Kobe to be "clutch".
How about a year ago, when Bonzi Wells was on the roster? In crunch time, who was on the floor more often? And Brooks did finish games from time to time, and Adelman wanted to do that more with him. That's partly what motivated the trade.
When and by whom was Prince considered a finished product? Prince also has a freakish wingspan and overall length, good hops. That gives him more abilities/gifts to work with. Shane has average hops and strength for someone his size. He's also proportional, no long wingpspan or legs. I cant find the scouting report for Prince right out of college, but i'm pretty sure he wasn't considered a finished product. i did find this: "Dave Hobbs still laughs a little when he thinks back to the telephone calls he got from NBA scouts and coaches a few years ago when Tayshaun Prince finished his Kentucky career. The knock on Prince was that he was soft -- and maybe didn’t always play as hard as he should." If that's true then he had more to give than what he gave in college.
and that's understandable, my beef is with posters saying there's a direct correlation between shane not stepping up in the playoffs and Houston no advancing past the first round. To me there seems to be at least a couple of other reasons that are related more directly and caused the early exits. Either way, i'm not sure why the playoffs are an issue. Has he hit big, clutch shots? Not really. But maybe the opportunity wasn't there. Maybe tmac passed it to rafer instead of shane. Or maybe Yao decided to put it up instead of kicking back out. Maybe tmac saw him open but shot it anyway. He's not exactly in a position to have control of the ball whenever he wants, like tmac, yao, or the point guard. He's not going to be a first or second option, which is who you go to in crunch time. Battier would only have the opportunity if they decided to pass to him in the first place. Is there any evidence that he actually got the ball in such situations in the playoffs and either missed or refused to take the shot? Any specific memory of a specific game? Or is it just taken as a fact because they can't remember him hitting one? That could just mean he never had the opportunity. It's already been mentioned that his stats were all above average in the playoffs, so isnt that stepping up? Everything that was within his control he did better. He shot better, therefore scoring more, rebounding more, etc. That looks like stepping up to me. Surely playing above his normal level had some kind of positive impact. Sounds to me like everyones complaint is shane didn't go beyond his abilities. Why would you want ANY player to do that? Its not about that, it's about raising your normal game. Do you want Kyle Lowry "stepping up" by taking more 3 pointers, or by being extra aggressive driving to the rim? Obviously you want him to stay within his abilities, so the answer is driving to the rim. Of course if he did take some 3s and he hit them, everyone would praise him for "stepping up", but that reminds me of a question raised by a poster after ron missed at the buzzer in chicago. "You know what happens when you try to do too much?" I answered, you're either a douche (what they called Ron) or a hero. If team wins then you're a hero and "did it all", if you lose you're a douche "and tried to do too much". Same with lowry, he makes it and he's stepping up. He doesn't and he's crucified for playing beyond himself. That's why stepping up shouldn't be defined as playing beyond your abilities, but raising your game, which Shane did.
Good point, I just wished we would get Bat's shot count up and wafer's/brooks down. Battier is moving very slow on the offensive end. I hope that Flight White looks at Battier and says that's where I can make a difference and stay with Houston. In the playoffs Bat and TruWarier are going to be monster on the wings playing defense.
I often wonder what the hell people are thinking when they boast of Battier's defense. I mean, honestly, I think he's a good player, don't get me wrong. It seems to me that when people speak of his defense, he holds guys to "roughly" their season averages. For instance, if he guards Kobe one night or something and Kobe scores 26-28 points, people remark of what a fine defensive job Battier did. I guess they are putting it in the perspective that Battier kept Kobe from going ballistic and scoring 60? If you think of it in those terms, the Phoenix Suns even qualify as a defensive powerhouse. Keeping someone at their average while preventing them from going unconscious is not being a great defensive player. Know what I mean?
RV6- When u watch the game, watch shane. Watch his man relative to yao. Watch his man after a entry pass. Watch a rebound and a transition chances. If you really watch, you will see and u wouldn't be in pursuit of DD post record.
He's valued because he holds players below their average. With regard to Kobe, even though he's scored more points against the Rockets since we've gotten Battier, the Rockets feel that he's held him to such a low efficiency that his effectiveness has been significantly lowered. Battier made two very good defensive plays late in the fourth quarter yesterday that most players would not make, and yet the only thing most fans will talk about is that he hit that 3-pointer. Nevermind that those defensive plays could have saved us 4-6 points. That's how it goes with Battier. The things he does very well are very easy to gloss over, because he's not showy about it and it doesn't jump out at you in the box score.
LOL, what are you thinking man? You are taking your frustration out on Battier because the team hasn't gotten out of the first round in 10 years? Did the team gotten out the first round when he wasn't even here ? Battier is not the problem and will never be the problem as DD pointed out so eloquently in his post. A team will always need a defensive player like Battier on the floor. It seems like the Battier criticizers here think basketball is an offensive sports only. If scoring 5 more points is that important to you, why don't we ask Morey to spend some money to get a sharp shooter that can score 20 points consistently? You know the team is going to have 23 mil coming off the book next season, right? Ever since Yao got here, we never seem to have 2 or 3 consistent sharp shooters on this team that can score when Yao got doubled or tripled. Instead we got all the ex-New York Knicks. Whom should shoulder the blame for that? Don't tell me it's Battier's fault. Yao pointed that Battier is the perfect teammate that does all the little things that make everyone a better player on the court. Does Yao's statement worth 2 cents to you? Why don't you go ask Yao why he said that? Please anwser this question: How many points do you need Battier to score to make you happy and that the team would get over the hump and get out the first round? You pointed out that we lost to Utah because Battier sucked. I say we lost to Utah because we got screwed by the referees. Do you agreed on that? I don't think Morey would be that stupid to trade Battier for Turif as someone suggested. I threw up on my computer key board when I read that. If Morey would be that stupid to trade away Battier, I would hop on a plane and get to Houston to give him a Kung Fu kick in the nuts that he would never forget in his life.
but you guys claim battier is a WINNER though. that was my response to some dude who said battier makes teams win. so i'm just sayin...
Exactly. Some guy even called me a comie when I agreed on someone to demote the guy who started this thread. I forgive him. He doesn't know all Chinese are capitalists.
Forgive me, English is my second language. I don't understand what you wrote here. I am not able to read between the line or between the thoughts. Can you explain again ? Thanks
That's not what people mean for the most part, but If Kobe happens to be very active that game, and takes like 40 shots, then yeah holding him to his average is probably good defense. You can't just look at the final points scored. Look at how many shots he's taking, which is usually a lot, which means he's shooting a lower % and therefore being less efficient. And if he's less efficient and taking a lot of shots, then his team as a whole is also less efficient. Or let's say Kobe shoots a decent percentage, gets his average, but he had to hit difficult shot after difficult shot, maybe re-posting up, dribblign more, thrwing more fakes to get loose. I dont think anyone would call that great defense, but it still has an affect on Kobe's endurance and you're making him waste more time on each posession. Either way, you decided to use the NBA's best player as an example and that's a bad example to use when talking about battier or any player because Kobe eventually gets his. Battier is known for his defense throughout a season, not for 2 or 3 games against the Lakers.
let's revisit this thread in the playoffs and see how battier does. his offense will be magnified in the playoffs b/c trust me, he'll be open all game, every quarter, every minute, every second, and every possession he's on the floor.
You're taking the Kwame route now, not answering anything i've asked or said. It's easy to say, "just watch, watch", and not mention any specifics. I've watched plenty of times. I've even posted a quarter's worth of play by play of shane only where it shows his man wasn't dropping down much. In fact, I believe I posted it in response to a comment you made about Battier's man leaving him all the time to double Yao. After I posted the play by play, you countered with, "oh it was the warriors they suck at D", but that's a lame excuse. You're just using anything you can find to feed you're argument. You can stick Ray Allen in the corner instead of Shane, and the majority, if not all, of teams are going to sag off of him to double Yao, and then just run to allen if Yao kicks it out. It has nothing to do with the shooter's ability, but everything to do with Yao's. They would rather take their chances with a shooter who's under 45% than with a center who shoots almost 55%. The only teams who wouldn't have a big center like TD, shaq, Dwight, who can guard Yao straight up and they'll try single coverage until it stops working and then try to double, again regardless of who's in the corner.
