Points allowed per possession is the best indicator of the defense you play. But don't take my word for it. http://bbs.clutchfans.net/showthread.php?t=142894&highlight=durvasa [rquoter] durvasa: What's the best way to rate a team's offense and defense, statistically (e.g. ppg, FG%)? Do you think one side of the ball is any more important than the other historically? And in particular, is it true that defense is more important than offense in the playoffs? Thanks, and good luck with the rest of the season! Daryl_Morey: best way to judge offense and defense is points/poss scored and given up per possession. Defense historically has been moderately more important but you generally have to be top 10 at both and very good at something. We are currently 2nd in defense and 17th in offense. [/rquoter] And, moreover, defense should be evaluated relative to the rest of the league, because there are year to year fluctuations in the offensive strength of opponents.
our great defense has been more of a system retained mostly from JVG and thibideau (see how boston suddenly just became a shut down defensive team when thibideau went there or how every JVG team is a great defensive team?). it's like how the d'antoni's system makes any team's offense better. we have a great defensive system. we can lose battier and our defense won't suffer that much (see the first 15 games without him). that's why i don't get these people who claim these "intangibles." again, unless shane battier is irreplaceable on defense like kobe or lebron or those type of guys on offense, he's replaceable.
JVG has said numerous times the best indicator of defense is fg% allowed. sure, the evaluations are relative. so relatively, the defense hasn't changed much with wesley and battier. like my claim just now, we have a great defensive system. players can be plugged in here and there and with work, they can be good defenders.
then you'd have to take Jimmy Jackson and a younger Deke as well, because it wasnt Wesley alone that anchored the D. Those 3 guys were really good defenders. James was also a decent defender. Sura had his speed issues at his age, but he was a gritty defender, like a Harpring. Those guys are gone and Deke is older. Who do we have now? An older Deke, chuck, shane and ron. Everyone else has issues with defense and Yao and tmac are constants (we're on both teams). charlie ward was also on that team and at his age also had speed issues, but he was a smart defender. He too, is gone. What also interesting is, like you said, the defense was as good as any year shane was here. BUT the offense was not. It was worse that year than any year shane has been here, yet he's an offensive liability, weird huh?
No he hasn't. JVG is constantly stressing the importance of defensive rebounding, closing out on 3-point shots, and not fouling. This is JVG's defensive philosophy: 1 contested 2-point jump shot. FG% does not represent that nearly as well as points allowed per possession.
It's the old line. It's hard to define but you know it when you see it. I'm talking about role players that essentially changed the course of the game. Unsung hero's with "hero" being the operative word. There's that moment in the game where you look back and the whole momentum changed due to a sequence of events that occurred. Obviously your stars do that all the time, right? But when "role" players can do that, it's HUGE. When role players can do it routinely, you become Robert Horry.
um.. deke wasn't there in 04-05. and jimmy jackson got traded for wesley in 04-05. our playoff offense was best in 04-05 bro (could be attributed to tmac's greatness) but offensively in the playoffs, that was our best performance. did you even watch the team that year? that was arguably the best team in terms of performance under the tmac-yao era.
yes he has. as a commentator, he has stated that many times. that's why he never cared for ppg allowed. popovich is the same way. how does fg% not account for how well your defense is. that's how many people rank teams in terms of defense. who are your best defensive teams this year: mine are (from fg% allowed) boston and cleveland. not coincidentally, they own the 2 best fg% allowed in this L. is our defense good this year as compared to previous years when we were top 3-4 in fg% allowed? no. and that's shown in the drop to 7th place at 45%.
Mutombo played 80 games in 04/05, and he was very productive that year. Moreover, Tracy was healthy and playing the best defense of his career that season, and Yao was also healthy all year.
seriously?? You don't think his defense alter's games?? You're looking at the WOW factor, the big play, the highlight. Are you saying you would rather have Shane make one BIG play in the final minute, than make a bunch of solid and significant plays throughout the game?? Most of the time that adds up to have a much bigger impact than one play. You have to face what shane is. He's not a closer, he's like a set up man. He helps get a team to a position to win. Like i mentioned before, in the last battier sucks thread i posted his play by play for over a quarter. Things like him stopping a guard from driving twice in the same posession, and the guard had to settle for a jumpshot, which he missed. Or shane hustling back on a fast break, meeting the guy with the ball at the rim, not getting a block or strip, but bothering him enough to miss the layup. No stats for that. No fame, No glory. No one notices it. They just think, "a block would have been great, really would have had the crowd roaring". The result would be the same though, they didn't score! What about charges? charges dont make an impact? Ever notice how shane takes a lot of charges when the momentum is swinging in the opponents favor? Momentum swings are a HUGE part of the game. The great teams can always sense the swing before it happens or they squash it as soon as it starts. Shane is a momentum stopper. One charge alone can stop momentum that could have brough on several more points in a row. There's just so many examples, please think of the game as more than boxscores and highlights, it's much deeper than that. I dont know if you have to have played organized basketball or have coached it to understand this, but it's overlooked way too much by fans.
durvasa, can you really make the claim that our defense has gone to "another" level with battier? it's more of a system that JVG has implemented wouldn't you say? i mean, he had us playing great D with steve, mobley, cato.... and those guys. and my fault on that mutombo bit. didn't know he was here for that long haha. but yet all i hear is shane is untouchable, he's making our defense elite (and the main reason)... and i don't really believe that.
FG% is a better indicator than PPG, and that's likely all he meant. But it by no means encompasses as much that is important to a good defense as points allowed per possession. "1 contested 2-point jump shot" is his core defensive philosophy. That means chase teams off the 3-point line, keep them off the free throw line, and defensive rebound. FG% does not account very well for any of those things.
I wouldn't be remotely surprised if it is Battier's influence that continues to make us good defensively. Who is still on this team that was here when JVG was? Yao, Tmac (sorta), Battier, and Mutombo. Which of those guys do you think is most vocal in making sure players play in the defensive system? Of course I don't know it's Battier's influence, but what else would it be? Tom Thibbs and JVG have been gone for 2 years and we're still a really good defensive team. If it weren't for our terrible defense earlier this year when we had guys going in and out of the lineup we would probably be right up there with Cleveland and Boston.
JVG is obviously a great defensive coach. But we were a better defensive team once Battier joined, despite injuries to Yao (an underrated defensive presence) and McGrady's defensive decline. Yeah, I give Battier a good amount of credit for that.
Please tell me what Wallace did on offense? I hope you're not claiming he had a post game or any kinf of a jumper. Rodman? Just as bad. Oakley? Just had a 15 footer. I can keep going and going down that list I just answered this not too long ago too. And please don't reply they "could dribble", because that means jack if you can't shoot or finish, with most of these guys couldnt. THAT is how far we've fallen, you're using pure dribbling as an advantage over shane. And not too long ago all shane could do was hit open 3s according to the haters, now all of a sudden he has ZERO offensive abilities?? The only reason that changed is because people realized many of these guys also only had one offensive move/shot, like Bowen only has a 3 pointer from the wing, so they had to now claim shane has Zero abilities to keep claiming he wasn't up to the level of others. It's bull. And comparing a tip rebound to your dog almost making it outside? Let me break that down for you: Shane tipping the rebound still results in houston getting the board. Shane getting a rebound still results in houston getting the board. See how the result is the same? Your dog going outside to to use the bathroom results in a ****ty backyard. Your dog almost making outside to use the bathroom results in a ****ty house. I sure hope you dont think those results equal....
You are missing the point. Why is this point so hard to understand? If you are an NBA player, you obviously are making plays throughout the game or you wouldn't be in the league at all. Battier OBVIOUSLY does that with the best of them. I'd expect him to continue to do that. But when the game is on the line, certain guys seem to step it up and make big plays. It doesn't have to be a highlight ...often it isn't. But if you watched the game, you understand the ebb/flow and how that player impacted it. With the game on the line, make a steal. Block a shot. Make a great assist. Some guys always seem to make winning plays. Battier is solid all game long but sometimes you need that one play to take you over the top. Battier has the talent ...but he doesn't seem to be that guy. I wish he was. I think Scola is gonna be that guy for us. He is a gamer. He seems to KNOW when you gotta make plays ...and does. Anyway, I won't be responding anymore ...because I'm going to the game.
tracy and shane have both said last year that the reason their defense is good is b/c they retained the same defensive philosophy under JVG, with very few wrinkles added by adelman and his assistants. however, adelman says otherwise. since JVG, our defensive philosophy is: pack the paint, make the other team shoot jumpers, rebound, and do not foul. we're doing the same things now. just like mark jackson and JVG said in today's game b/t suns-spurs, any player that comes to play for the spurs suddenly become a good defensive player -> IT'S THE SYSTEM. i mean they don't start bruce bowen anymore, but have bonner and a very old finley and they're still one of the best defensive teams in the L. that's all i'm saying.
the first 15 games without shane this year: we allowed 90.5ppg (don't want to get into fg% b/c taking too much time). and we went 10-5. we struggled then b/c tracy began to struggle dealing with his knee and really messed up the rotation by going in and out.
So it was Tom who got the defensive player of the year award for KG? Gimme a break.... PLEASE telle who would replace shane, please do because i'm sure you can't come up with someone who isn't a franchise player or someone who a team won't give up, which pretty much does make shane fairly irreplacable because you can't get a player a team doesn't want to give up and a frnachise player is difficult to get.
