1. Whether others players also tip rebounds or not is irrelevant to this argument, there's no comparison being made between battier and other players. The argument was that Battier himself doesnt get rebounds, that his rebounding is low for a player like him, not compared to anyone else, my reply was that he tips several rebounds a game, they just dont get counted as stats. But you do bring up a good point in shane's favor. Yes a lot of player's tip rebounds, especially the frontcourt players, but your typical frontcourt players are already in position to rebound. Shane is usually listed as a 3, but he spends time guarding 2s as well, so defensively he's often in the backcourt. Even when guarding a 3 man, a lot of these guys make a living around the perimeter, so he spends a lot of time around there, which is why getting rebounds is more difficult for him. He's often the guy flying at a shooter, meaning he's landing somewhere beyond the 3 point line as the ball is hitting the rim. The fact that he manages to be close enough to tip rebounds several times a game is a sign of his hustle. He's running back into the paint from the perimeter and reaches in to tip rebounds away from opponents. He also has a habit of tipping offensive boards to a wide open teammate under the rim. Yes, i'm sure every player in the league has tipped a rebound before, i'm sure some do it several times a season, even almost once every game, but Shane literally does it several times a game. I'm not sure what the fascination with higher stats is. Why must a player that plays 20+ mins on a 55 win team have higher than average stats? I dont get it. There's no rule stating minimum stats. If we won 55+ games with Yao averaging 1 block a game, is that really going to be a big deal? Probably not. shane's stats aren't bad at all for a SF. what do YOU think he should be averaging?? 2 blocks? 3 blocks? that's PF and center territory. How many rebounds? 8, 9, 10? I swear some of you guys think Battier is playing out there by himself. There's OTHER guys who rebound, who block, who score. Anyone seen Scola become a beast on the boards this year? Especially recently?Well tell him to slow down, he's averaging too many rebs for a PF and he needs to let Battier get 1 or 2 of his to make you fans happy. Is Ron Artest under fire also? He only gets one more rebound than Shane and plays two MORE minutes a game. Uh-oh, Yao better let Ron get some of his rebounds too. We outrebound our opponents, i guess that's not good these days... shane is second in blocks on the team, as a SMALL FORWARD, and did is a knock on him? Why not outrage because none of our power forwards come in second behind Yao? Why is there no discussion that Yao, as a center, only gets .85 more blocks than Shane??? To me 1.85 seems low for a center, especially a 7-6 center, that's a bigger issue than our small forward getting 1 block a game, which is what many power forwrds, and even some centers get. I swear Shane can't win... As for steals, the quick guys always get those, that's all over the league. Once again there's that misconception that Shane is athletic. He's not. He doesn't gamble on D, doesn't reach in, he plays defense by staying in front of his man. He also only fouls twice a game, which is astonishing for someone who guards so many scoring threats for 30 + mins a game. I guess that's not an impressive stat? Should he he gamble more, get an extra steal or two to make you guys happy, and in the process earn 2 more fouls a game which probably lead to a fee free throws? Yeah that would be great
Yes and no. Yes because a lot of guys were scared to shoot, so anyone, including shane could have stepped up and taken shots. However, shane's highpoint in scoring was 14 ppg, i dont think he's capable of acquiring enough moves to get past that, so i think we're talking about a very minor increase. No, because we had two guys averaging 25 ppg. So although the offense around those two was anemic, they were prolific. They took like half the team s shots, so i think over the course of the season they dominated the ball offensively, so there wasn't a lot of opportunity for shane to step in because the offense was set to revolve around Yao and Tmac. I think the opportunities for shane came in very specific cases, when Yao and tmac were shut out, which wasn't often. So it would be difficult for Shane, or any other rocket, to confidently step into a position they rarely were in. A lot of this falls on the coaches. Remember JVG was coaching that team and he always said, "when you have the most efficient shooting big man in the league/team, you give it to him every single time", so part of the problem with that team was the mentality that Yao always had to get it and then Tmac is plan B, which doesn't leave much for anyone else. Then when you try to get them to step up in a crucial situation, like a playoff game, they can do it because the're not used to it.
That's probably the thing that's overlooked the most. I believe shane genuinely feels the others have a better chance of scoring than he does. So when he passes up a shot he sees it as a way to help the team, but from the fans perspective it's like he's just scared or incompetent.
Agree with RV6. I can't believe people don't understand why the Rockets are winning. The Rockets are fighting for 4th place right now in the western conference, with: 1) A 20 million hole in their roster 2) A guy named Ron Ron who likes to shoot contested 3s and is shooting his 2nd worst FG% in his last 10 years 3) A bunch of scrubs With TMac out, we simply don't have the talent that other teams have. The reason why we're doing so well is because of "intangibles" everywhere on the team. I can name 3 players that give us intangibles: Battier Scola Landry If we're not getting the "intagibles," there is no way we are fighting for 4th place in the western conference now.
Useless thread. The copy and paste replies are getting old, Kwame. Yes, I'll tell you the fact that Shane is the lowest scoring NBA starter ISN'T important since no one really answered that for you. We have other capable combination scorers on this team that can pick up the scoring load when Yao's cold, or Artest or whoever else you're addressing. No, the team does NOT need to worry about Shane stepping up his game on offense and take away his defensive skills (even if he is not "a Bowen-caliber defender"). Your points in this thread won't have anything to do with the Rockets' failure in the playoffs this year. And no, they won't be going very far this year. They'll need to make adjustments and in my opinion, Shane is the least of their worries.
just a stats that you might find useful in the argument, RV6. League wide, the average block per game is about 0.4 bpg, and steals are around 0.8 spg in the last couple of years. If we restrict it to the starters, it's around 0.5 bpg and 1 spg these days. I don't see how a perimeter player like shane getting close to double of the league average in blocks and slightly above average in steals can be criticized in those areas...
This thread is laughable. Even the national media writes article after article about how fantastic Shane Battier is. Heck there is even an article out of Memphis that says they should of kept Shane over Rudy. The Grizz went from being a 50 win team to a lottery team after he left. Many great teams have had a player like him in thier starting lineup. Rodman and Bowen come to mind, and yes they both started for championship teams. You don't want Shane Battier taking shots, you want Yao taking them. Shane only takes shots that are effecient ie wide open ones. Thats exactly how you want all your players to play. Who cares what his ppg is? Go back and read the truehoop article about Artest/Battier's defense on Lebron a few weeks ago where he had one of the worst performances of his career. Go back and watch game one of the season last year where he dominated Kobe and then hit the game winner. He is a must when we play teams with dominant wing players. How can you seriously not love this guy? He is effecient, great attitude, consistent effort at a very affordable price tag. Any team in this league would take him and he would be a starter provided they didn't have a superstar at his position. He is, simply put, the best role player on the planet. My only criticism is that he needs to shoot the three ball at a higher percentage from the new spot he always ends up in. For some reason in the McGrady offense he would always end up in the corner, now he is never there and ends up out by the elbow.
I think Rockets don't need Battier's points. There are guys on the bench willing to score on you and I'm sure that Battier could score more points if he wanted to. Just see the JVG era, he had decent 10 ppg and that number fell down as there are more offensive gifted players on the team.
Well said. Virtually, every championship team has 1/2 guys that fall in Battier's category. 2008 - James Posey - 7.4 ppg 2007 - Bruce Bowen - 6 ppg 2006 - James Posey - 7.7 ppg 2005 - Bruce Bown 2004 - Tayshon Price - 10 ppg 2003 - Bruce Bowen - 7.1 ppg 2002 - Robert Horry - 6.8 ppg 2001 - Robert Horry - 6.5 ppg 2000 - Robert Horry - 5.7 ppg 1999 - Mario Ellie - 8.8 ppg 1998 - Dennis Rodman 1997 - Dennis Rodman 1996 - Dennis Rodman 1995 - Robert Horry 1994 - Vernon Maxwell - 13ppg etc. As I'm compiling this list, it's really interesting the repeats. It really goes to show how those "intagible" guys are really important to great teams. I focused more on the type of player that was: 1. Not a primary scoring option 2. Was a major part of the defense. 3. Does not require the ball to be effective ...but can/does still hurt you on offense. The one thing Battier is missing, however, is that he doesn't ever seem to come up big when the team really needs him. He's so busy working on "intangibles" that he doesn't ever make the big play that you gotta have to close out games. Every other guy on this list are guys that seem to always impact the game somehow when the game is on the line. Horry, Posey and Rodman are guys that always seemed to find ways to impact the game causing a big momentum swing. Sort of like Mutumbo doesn't have to score points to affect momentum. I wish Battier could find ways to impact momentum a little more.
Do I care about his offense? No. What I care about is that the Rockets are +7 PPG over their opponent while he is on the floor. That's the most of any other player on the Rockets.
But that's the point. He realizes that's not his job. You don't want him deciding that it's his turn to start making shots. You want that in the hands of Yao and other more offensivley inclined players. If he becomes more aggressive then he would screw up the offense. The fact that that he limits the best player on the opposing team so much is more than enough for me. But like the other guys side I do wish he was better at the elbow or straight on 3. He's deadly in the corner but out there not so much. However I only want him to take that shot when he's given the ball in rhythm and wide open. I don't want him to look for it so to speak.
You missed my point. You can impact games in many ways without actually taking shots. Sometimes these guys take/hit big shots like Horry but sometimes they make great defensive stands or great offensive rebounds. Whatever. Guys that impact games by doing the dirty work. Battier's game on Kobe last year is an example of impact. Played great defense and then ended up hitting the game winning shot. Other than that, I can't think of a single game where Battier put his stamp on a game.
i'd take david wesley from 04-05 over this year's shane battier without hesitation. our defense that year was just as good as any year shane has been here.
Well there's a couple problems with that. First off you can't get an offensive rebound if it doesn't come to you. Along with that if you're fighting for an offensive rebound you're not getting back on defense. What's more important, the possibility of getting an offensive rebound? Or ensuring the other team doesn't get an easy fast break because you're busy fighting for the ball? Keep in mind when answering that that the defensive team gets the rebound most times because they have position. Then your talking about shutting a guy down. You can't blame a defender if a shooter makes a shot. If the guys gonna make it he's going to make it. All's you can do is play perfect D on him and require perfection from him to make the shot.
I disagree with that. I did this a couple months back, looking at standardized defensive ratings going back several years for the Spurs and the Rockets. The last two seasons with Battier would rate higher, defensively, than what we did in 04/05 in my view.
Again, you are missing the point. There are guys that come into a game and leave in imprint ...and it doesn't have to be by scoring points. Dennis Rodman is a perfect example. Every player does it in their own way. I wish Battier can find a way to alter games. He's talented enough. He's so focused on being a tactician that I think he forgets the object is to win the game. When the time comes, you need players to make plays. On defense or offense ...whatever. A steal, a block, a rebound, a shot, draw a charge ...whatever. Anything to impact the game. Battier just doesn't seem to alter the "momentum" of games often enough given his talent level.
we allowed 91ppg on 42% fg, 33% 3pt in 04-05. we were top 3 in the L in all 3 categories i believe (despite a VERY porous start). our fg% allowed has never been better with battier than what it was in 04-05. you can say the ppg is higher b/c of the faster paced we're trying to incorporate and that's fine. fg% allowed is the best indicator of the defense you play. it was better in 04-05 than any year battier has been here.
That example you gave, do you consider that impact because he played great D the whole game or because he hit the game winning shot? Or both? If you say because of great D, then he's definitely had a lot of game where he played great d the whole game and shut guys out. If you say because of the game winning shot, well battier 's big shots don't come as game winners. A few reasons why: -Mainly because he doesn't have the skills level to do it. Now he can hit a spot up shot, which he's done. But he's not going to drive to the rim like Aaron or tmac, and he's not going to post someone up and score on them like Yao. He's not going to dunk on someone like Landry and that's all because he's not talented offensively like they are. People think he's holding back these offensive capabilities, but he's not. He's a spot up shooter, has a nice hook, he can hit come open midrange shots, short banks, etc. But he's not going to take someone off the dribble consistently. He's not going to drive and finish in traffic. He really is THAT unathletic. He's all about hard work, hustle, studying the game. He's like that student that doesn't have that great memory and problem solving skills, isn't a genius naturally, but instead just works really hard to keep up with them. -also, how many game winning shots or big shots at the end can you recall for ANY rocket in the last year or so? There isn't a lot, mainly because Houston often chokes in last second shots. I remember last year they had a good stretch where they couldnt even get off last second shots, either turning it over, taking too long, or getting a bad look. the rockets haven't done well in close games, they usually win comfortably, or don't have a chance to win in the end. The few times they did come through, the shot went to tmac or yao. Rafer had some opportunities, but because he's the guy you want to leave open. -finally, i think battier does shy away at the end from STEPPING UP, not from a shot that's there. In other words, he's not going to try to make something happen, like driving the ball, posting up, etc, but that's because he knows he's not very good at it comapred to others. however, he does take a shot that comes to him, like he did against the lakers. He also has hit a lot of 3, especially last year, that push leads out of reach. Like if they had a 4 point lead with a minute in half, or a 7 point lead with 2 and a half minutes left, he'd get shots, take them, and hit them. This year he's definitely not embraced that like in the past, and i think that's what fans have fresh in their minds and what they refer to when saying he sucks he needs to go, but they don't take into consideration the condition he was playing in most of this season. I just think the way this season is going, the team winning, competing, running, more enjoyable to watch, those are all reasons to wait out the season before declaring Houston will never go anywhere because of shane and implying he'll be their downfall for years to come. The past failures have been due to much bigger issues than Shane. Some, like getting more scorers/options, solid PFs, consistency from Yao, deeper bench, have pretty much been resolved. Others, like health, haven't been. If this team was healthy and winning rings with shane scoring 3 ppg, no one would complain. When things don't go as planned, people just want to find someone to blame. They need to realize the one big issue that truly has been this team's downfall is injuries. And injuries are unpredicatable so fans can't analyze it and try to "fix" it. the closest they can come is screaming "fire Keith jones" or "we want the phoenix staff", but there's little numbers or facts to to use with those topics, so they continue to look for something to fix, because in their mind, there MUST be something that needs fixing since we're not winning rings yet. So today it's shane, tomorrow it's Brooks, next month it's Yao. Something DOES needs fixing, but it's not shane, brooks, or yao, its our luck.
Shane Battier - 2nd All-Defensive Team 2007-2008 and thats it. If all these "intangibles" are so important, why have they only been recognized once in his career by the league. The same league that supposedly appreciates these so called "intangibles". If these "intangibles were so important why hasn't Shane made more 2nd teams at least. This leads me to believe that it is possible to have these "intangibles" as well as contribute statistically. Many of the players here mentioned in comparison to Battier(below), could at least do something with the basketball(medium range j, dribble, draw a foul,low post games), and some had actual plays ran for them. They were superior offensive players to Shane "the Mannequin" Battier and gave you intangible. 1 Ben Wallace: 1 championship, 2 total finals appearances 2 Dennis Rodman: 5 championships, 6 total finals appearances 3 Charles Oakley: 1 finals appearance 4 Bruce Bowen: 3 championships 5 P.J. Brown: 1 championship 6 Mark Jackson: 1 finals appearance 7 Jason Kidd: 2 finals appearances 8 Mark Eaton 9 Horace Grant: 4 championships, 5 total finals appearances 10 Dikembe Mutombo: 2 finals appearances 11 Eric Snow: 2 finals appearances 12 Dale Davis: 1 finals appearance 13 Michael Cage 14 Muggsy Bogues 15 Shane Battier 16 Anthony Mason: 1 finals appearance 17 A.C. Green: 3 championships, 5 total finals appearances 18 Doug Christie 19 Marcus Camby: 1 finals appearance 20 Nate McMillan: 1 finals appearance Can't believe people are hyping up a player(any player) because he tries to tip balls to his teammates. Thats like being happy your dog almost made it outside to use the bathroom. Good Job! Is that how far we've fallen? The media has brainwashed some of you. The "nice guy" discount is now in effect. ie. brett farve, doc rivers(when he was horribly coaching the celtics before they were given kg), Donovan McNabb If your nice to the media and kiss their a** and your a "good guy", the media will make excuses for you left and right. WAKE UP
So if he fails to stuff or steal the ball from Kobe Bryant it's a failure The only difference between the last LA game and the 22nd win last year against LA is taht Kobe was able to make some of the shots down the stretch. Nothing Battier did was any different. Therefore I do not consider Battier's worth to be an iota less in the game we lost versus the game we won. He did everything he was capable of doing. That's like if Artest takes a horrible shot that's out of the offense and messes up our flow but then saying "Great shot! That's what we need!" if it luckily goes in. He doesn't forget the object of the game is to win, he just doesn't try to do to much which will only result in him getting burned. For example, despite how good Artest's defense is, look how often he gambles to get a steal and the defender blows by him. Do you want that?
