Interesting, but I think only 20% (4 out of 20) of those guys have ever won a championship. I've repeated myself over and over again in this thread. I don't feel like typing it all again or cutting and pasting it. Maybe you can read the entire thread or you can also refer to the 2nd and 3rd paragraphs in post #185.
Let's hope we can add a Rockets team with Battier on it to that list as well. As Battier's role with the team currently stands, I have my doubts though.
First, 6 of those guys have won championships (several of them multiple times.) Second, for the most part those guys have great playoff resumes. As Durvasa mentioned, those guys all do at least 1 thing really well (usually defense). Here are the career NBA finals appearances for the players mentioned by Durvasa: 1 Ben Wallace: 1 championship, 2 total finals appearances 2 Dennis Rodman: 5 championships, 6 total finals appearances 3 Charles Oakley: 1 finals appearance 4 Bruce Bowen: 3 championships 5 P.J. Brown: 1 championship 6 Mark Jackson: 1 finals appearance 7 Jason Kidd: 2 finals appearances 8 Mark Eaton 9 Horace Grant: 4 championships, 5 total finals appearances 10 Dikembe Mutombo: 2 finals appearances 11 Eric Snow: 2 finals appearances 12 Dale Davis: 1 finals appearance 13 Michael Cage 14 Muggsy Bogues 15 Shane Battier 16 Anthony Mason: 1 finals appearance 17 A.C. Green: 3 championships, 5 total finals appearances 18 Doug Christie 19 Marcus Camby: 1 finals appearance 20 Nate McMillan: 1 finals appearance 30% of these players won championships (6 out of 20) 75% of these players went to the finals (15 out of 20)
are you even serious with this post? yao faces double teams and teams game plan for the guy. and he's shooting one of the highest fg% of his career. shane battier is a guy NOBODY game plans for b/c whenever he touches the ball, he's always wide open. and his fg% is going downhill. this is a horrible comparison. i mean, if shane is shooting 45-46%, you'll see a lot less complaining b/c we actually want him to take more shots. not only is he taking less shots, i don't want him to take any shots either shooting 38%. after improving from january to february of 35% to 39%, shane has now gone to 22% shooting in march. so he's taking 6 shots a game this year, let's make that 2 or 3. or 0.
to add, outside of ben wallace and dennis rodman, who were SUPER defenders (one with a few DPOYs on his resume and the other considered of the elite defending big men in history, the other guys actually handle the ball some and had some offensive responsibilities when they were on the court. shane has ZERO. bruce bowen comes closest to shane. but the shane of THIS year isn't even close to bruce bowen of those years. hell i still remember watching dale davis being given the ball in the post to go against the lakers in the finals. again people. we're talking about battier of THIS YEAR primarily.
aside from the battier argument, i think wallace was a bit overrated on defense, definitely wouldnt say one of the best in history. Back to shane, shane has the responsiblity of hitting opens 3, oakley hit open 15 footers only, like you mentioned wallace and rodman truy had zero responsibilities, Bowen only hits corner 3s and his ball handling was no more invovled than shane's. Snow did handle the ball a lot, but offensively was just a spot up shooter who passed, didn't create. Dale Davis was mostly a clean up man, he got his own points, not a lot of responsibility either.
It's a very valid comparison. there's two arguments about shane. One is his shooting % was bad. That' was mostly due to his ankle and I think he'll show he's in a short slump right now and well go back to his norm. The other is he's passing up shots. I agree with that and think he's going to keep doing it. Here's where the Yao comparison is very valid. Yao is passing back out more, or just not getting the ball and i'm pretty sure it's not because he doesn't want it, but because he knows he's got better scorers/shooters than ever before, so he too is passing up opportunities. the double team argument is weak, he's less likely to be doubled now that he's got shooters/scorers around him than before. shane's % is going downhill?? it's actually gone up over the last two months, like I've repeated several times, March is a very small sample size, only 4 games, Shane could have shot 70% in those 4 games and it wouldn't mean he's becoming better, at 4 games, those are just hot streaks or slumps.
Certainly stats don't tell the whole story, but a combination of them can tell a whole hell of a lot. For all the "small" things that Shane does, the NBA is still a game of numbers. If Team X outrebounds Team Y then they improve their chances of winning. If Team X Out shoots, out steals, out assists, and out blocks then the chances of winning skyrockets. Its about matchups in the NBA, and if you are going to say that Shanes "small" things equate to wins, then I too will submit the fact that Shanes teams have done squat in the playoffs, when its only good teams. I love Battier for what he does, but it takes alot of "small intangile" things to overcome or equate to great things. Fact of the matter is, his position is seriously outplayed everynight. Shane going against a Rudy Gay pulling in 5 awesome "intangilbe" things, will not overcome the fact that he still is going to lose the postion war by about 10-15 points, a few boards, a couple of blocks maybe, some steals, leading a fast break to a momentum changing dunk. Thats why it was ludicrous for me to hear people seriously think that Artest off the bench was a better option than Shane off the bench. You win in the playoffs by winning the matchup wars. Unfortunately when you take off your homer glasses, you will see that shane loses almost every night.
shane went from 39% to 35% to 39% to now 22%. what signs are you seeing? and please, the shane yao comparison is laughable. yao at least has to go at a guy or 2 whenever he has the ball. all shane does is shoot wide open shots. that's like a dream job on offense.
I would also like to add, without looking it up, Shane has zero defensive player of the years awards, and zero first team all defensive units. I think he has made second squad 2 or 3 times. Part of Defense is not only the intangibles, but blocks, steals, defensive rebounding, which Battier gives us almost none of.
I can't explain it any more clearly.You need to look at the whole picture and not just the numbers on a screen, think about WHY the numbers are that way. He started the year not in great shape, but he was playing because he thought his ankle was doing ok, as in minimal pain, no real swelling, etc, that's the 39%, then he started having the issues with repeated swelling of the ankle and consistent pain...that's the 35% area, then he came back with a good ankle and trying to play himself into game shape, that was the 39%. those are the signs, he was below avg at first because he wasn't game ready, then he ran into problems and went more below avg, then started getting better and he's back to just below average, once again, the march stats are too small in size to count just yet. Do you know what i'm comparing about Yao and Shane? you keep mentioning defenders, but that has nothing to do with it, Yao has had defenses more focused on him before, now that its less, his shot attempt aren't going to decrease unless he's passing them up. He's shooting 4 less shots than he did 2 years ago, and his % actually went UP. If the defensive coverage was a problem now, his % wouldn't go up. It went up because he's taking the single coverage and easier shots, and passing up more difficult opportunities, which in the past he would force because he was 1 of only 2 guys who could score.
i just pray shane doesn't play like this in the playoffs. i'm praying HARD. i want the guy to do really well b/c he'll play 35+ minutes and we need him to play well if we want to win in the playoffs. i don't care if you're a role player or not. whenever you're on the court for that long, you're going to make an impact on BOTH ENDS, negatively or positively. i'm praying HARD. we all should. this shane isn't gonna get it done. his defense hasn't been all-nba this year to justify his suckiness offensively. again, we're all rocket fans and we all want every player to do well b/c the final result is a higher probability of a rockets win. i just feel if shane plays this much v. the elite teams we're going to face in the playoffs, he's gotta play much better offensively. MUCH BETTER.
Intangibles includes the 3 or 4 rebounds he TIPS to teammates, offensively ANd defensively. That's why there's such a big deal made about intangibles, some are pretty much equal to the boxscore stats, but don't count due to technicalities. how is a block a game none of?? that's more than decent for a 3 man considering 1.5 to 2 is decent for a big man. 1.2 steals a game?? Hello? Where did you get he gives us almost none of?? and he has no first team all defensive because he's shadowed by the greatest defenders in the league. second team could easily mean he's top 10 in the nba, maybe even top 6 or 7, that's nothing to laugh at. Since the all nba teams are league wide and not split into eastern and western, a lot of quality players get let out of the first team and even second team. Hakeem was on the second time like 4 times. Other's who have been second teamers are Deke, Wallace, Camby, TD, and rodman. It's actually not a bad team to be voted on, it's like being a back up all star. the DFPOY award recently has only been given to a select few. In the last 8 yrs only 5 different guys have won it, with only 2 players winning it from 01 to 06. A lot of guys win it repeatedly lately. That's a sign of someone being too good on D, than Shane not being good enough.
First of all, ALL players, especially front court players, try to tip rebounds to teammates. Secondly. Ok so your telling me that Shanes 1 block 1 steal, and maybe 3-4 defensive rebounds a game are good for a front court player who gets 33 mins a game on a team that is on pace to win close to 55 games a season for two years? Not to mention his Memphis teams that broke 50 wins. Thanks for making my case stronger. And as I said, he has ZERO defensive player of the year awards, and ZERO first team selections a very limited few 2nd team selections. The players you listed all probably have made multiple 1st teams, and won many DPOY awards at some point.
Yeah yeah yeah, i've read your responses and, quite frankly, they aren't any good. You can float around this "situational minutes" suggestion all you want. I would think any role player should be judged on the same "situational minutes" basis. If they're playing well -- play them. If they're not -- yank them. Your incessant and somewhat obsessive arguments about Battier's minutes are way overplayed and somewhat annoying. Sort of like the same way you played the whole T-Mac soap opera situation: 700,000 posts playing every possible angle, beating every point to a dead pulp and daring any poster to comment on a hijacked thread. I get it. Nothing against you in particular, just saying it gets annoying after a while.
Wait, so, whats up with this "baytown" stuff? Alright brah, after this Battier thing's done.... (Actually on behalf of Baytown, we do apologize for DD and Fatty Fats.... They do mean well though) I did misread. I do see now the point you were trying to make. That Battier had to play over his head for an atrociously bad Grizzlies team. And the better the offense the less he's counted on to score, gotcha Though I was implying that Rockets offense was worse than it actually showed. It was all on the strength of 2 injury prone superstars. Once Yao got neutralized, it was McGrady. And after THAT? Rafer...... The opening was there for Battier to participate more, was it not?
Actually Battier is good for a block and steal a game (career average) That might be the tangible part of his game. There's a suprisingly low number of players who have both 1 block and 1 steal. Bruce Bowen doesnt have both. Tayshaun Prince doesnt. Players tend to either get a bunch of one category but not the other (Artest 2.5 steals but .3 blocks). So it kinda shows he's a well rounded defender. Personally for the record, I dont have a problem with Battier's - Defense - Durability - Professionalism - What we gave up for him. I can cite plenty Astros and Texans deals that make Battier look like a bargain (Jason Jennings, Charley Casserly era). And for our peace of minds we put the Eddie Griffin deal out of mind. My issue is getting the most of Battier whatever that is. And when he's shooting poorly or just not wanting to shoot, in my opinion he's being selfless to a fault.
