How hard is Chicago kicking themselves in the butt?

Brand averaged 20 and 10 last year, are you aware of how many people in the history of the NBA have done that as a rookie? Those are superstar numbers.

Brand and Francis are different players entirely. Both were excellent picks and both will have great futures in the NBA. Brand isn't as flashy as Francis and Francis isn't as polished as Brand. Brand is a tank, Francis is a jet, both can deliver damage quite succesfully.

And Lamar Odom could still end up better than either one. It's still too early to tell.

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Hobbs: Brand's numbers should be attributed to the "Clipper Effect." That is, your stats get inflated if your team sucks... somebody has to score, and the other team is generally going to let up a little bit as well. Also, Brand played in the Eastern conference... nearly all the quality big men were in the West. There's a difference between trying to score against Duncan and some Eastern scrub.

There are a couple things that need to be examined here. First of all, it's harder to find a good PG than a good PF. PF is the deepest position in the league right now, while there are relatively few PG's who can really dominate.

Secondly, it usually takes PG's more time to mature than PF's, because they have more responsibilities. As he matures, Francis must not only improve his scoring abilities, but he must also learn more to *create*... this comes with experience. Brand will improve... but in fewer ways.

Brand is a nice player, but he's not going to be a superstar. Francis could be.

I will agree that Odom could potentially outstrip Francis... perhaps Miles and Bender as well... I simply don't know.

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Shandon Anderson rocks.
The lottery sucks. Playoffs 2001.

 

haven,

You do realize that the Rockets sucked last year too, right? I suppose you could say that Francis was the best player on a bad team as well.

Just a thought. I think it's evident that Francis is something special, but there's plenty of room for "stars" when you're talking about the future.

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"I'd like to be going down Fourth Avenue in a parade with all the graffiti coming down on our heads." -- Patrick Ewing, showing off that Georgetown edumacation.

 

A lot of the Francis arguments are simply homer arguments (and that's fine, as this is Francis' home).

Brand's numbers were no more padded by his team than Francis' numbers were as both teams were quite bad with the Rockets being slightly better. The Rockets clearly had other offensive options for Francis to go to though, which relieved a lot of double teams and the like on him.

This is an argument that is totally unwinnable either way, as it's almost totally subjective. The facts are that both players played pretty well against all competition and that both would have regardless of situation.

No one really aswered by question about the 20 and 10. Brand did something incredibly rare, something that every other player, even those on worse teams than last years Bulls, has had the opportunity to do and failed. It is an achievement that illustrates his talents.

Francis' numbers were similarly stunning across the board. Points, assists and rebounds galore.

It isn't a slight on either to say that both are similarly capable of being superstars in this league. Heck, it's kind of a statement made by the NBA when they voted them both rookie of the year.

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A couple of points:

In Stevie's corner, guards most definetely tend to take longer to adjust to life in the NBA than big men. When you consider Brand was a seasoned big man, and Francis was not particularly seasoned in the PG position, Francis performance has to be considered more suprising, an in my mind a little bit more impressive.

However, 20 & 10 is nothing to sneeze at even with a bad team in a weaker conference. Brand is already the best PF in the East (though clearly not top 5 in the league at his position because there are so many great players at that position). Further, most people would build around a top 5 big man (PF or C) more so than around a top 5 PG.

Overall, I think most GM's would take Stevie, but I don't think you can be criticized for taking Brand either. In Stevie you have potentially the best PG in the game in 2-3 years. I don't think Brand will ever get mention as the best PF in the game (he just doesn't have KG or Duncan talent), but he will be an all-star regular for sure.

I sure would have liked for Brand to be a Rocket with that Drew deal.


[This message has been edited by Desert Scar (edited October 11, 2000).]

 

Hey...thanks. Well said and I agree wholeheartedly. It's exactly what I would have said to Haven.


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You think Kidd and Payton will be gone by then, or that Stevie will be better than them? I think Crawford will be right up there with him anyway (in 2 to 3 years).


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i've heard you make this statement a number of times now, in different threads. so, what, in an nba game, has crawford done to allow you to make such a bold statement?


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Essentially the top two players to come out of college the last couple of years are Duncan, Carter, and Francis.

- vince

 

Crawford hasn't exactly shown the sort of skills necessary for you to make that claim. In fact, we haven't seen him play in a single regular season NBA game.

on Brand: the 20-10 thing is impressive... but let's look at this, as a previous poster mentioned, as relative strength at each position. You continue to NOT ADDRESS all my claims. This is *annoying*. If you wish to make an assertion, argumentative "clash" is important.

Let's look at other PF's in the game... say, Duncan and Garnett. Each is taller than Brand and more athletic. I don't see much hope of Brand ever equalling either of these players... if you think he will, please explain why.

Now, name a PG who Francis will not be able to surpass. I think an argument COULD be made that Francis will never have the pure instincts of Kidd... but he'll be more athletic and faster than Kidd, and have a better shot.

But I digress, as I must agree with Hobbs. I think Francis has shown more superiority, but I admit the futility of either of us every convincing the other.

Still, if the Rockets crush the Bulls again this year, I'll be the first one to point it out .


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Shandon Anderson rocks.
The lottery sucks. Playoffs 2001.

 

about the title of this thread, pretty hard...just kidding. brand is a good player. but as haven said, the only advantage brand has over duncan/garnett is that he MIGHT be a little more strong. Webber and wallace are taller, stronger, and more athletic than brand so i dont see him getting better than them. And someone mentioned that most teams arent centered around guards. that might be true but there have been many good teams centered around guards

the Bulls when they were good-jordan
Showtime Lakers-Magic
Bad Boy Pistons-Thomas
1980's hawks- nique(sg/sf)
Sonics-Payton
Suns-Kidd
Pacers- Rose and Miller
The 1992 Dream Team -Jordan,Clide, magic,etc
Im sure there are others

 

Man, this kind of thing pisses my off.

I few points.

Who would you rather have on our team, Brand or Mo? I think that ANYONE in his right mind would go with Brand. And i'm one of the biggest Mo supporters out there.

Brand is the second coming of Malone, minus the bad attitude. Great work ethic, no off-court problems, and a nice guy overall.

Better players than Brand at his position? Hmm, let's see. Duncan. Webber. Garnett. Malone.

That's about it.

a legit 20-10 guy in his rookie season? c'mon.

I would go as far as saying that right now Brand is a better PF than Francis is a PG.

And since that was said, i have a HARD time picturing Francis at Payton's level right now.

He is still far from the complete package, both as a playmaker and specially defensively.

I love the kid, but let's not idolize him that much just because he is on our team.

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By moonlight, we RIDE ten THOUSAND side by side...!

 

Gettinbranded: Next time you presume to make an argument, read the rest of the other person's. I addressed the difference between the Rockets and the Bulls already.

1. Rockets had a SIGNIFICANTLY better record.
2. Rockets ANNIHILATED the Bulls when they played them.
3. Rockets played in better conference.
4. Rockets offense was actually good-defense was the problem.

If you want to dismiss my arguments, please at least make a semblance of an attempt to address them. Thank you.

Now, to address your claim about Brand. It's much easier to play against good competition now and then... much harder to play against it night in and night out.

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Shandon Anderson rocks.
The lottery sucks. Playoffs 2001.

[This message has been edited by haven (edited October 11, 2000).]

 

You think you're pretty smart, don't you? "In an NBA game" when even the pre-season is only two games old? C'mon. Nothing at all. Is that what you want to hear?

I do believe it based on the handles, the lightning quickness, the ability to shoot and drive, and the oh so natural that it's easy athletic ability that allowed him to shoot to the sixth pick in the draft even though he's only played 1 year of organized ball after only two years of High School ball.

But I believe it even more when long time Bulls writers, players, and coaches say things like "He's the most talented rookie to be in a Bulls uniform since Pippen, maybe Jordan." --yes, that means more talented than Brand himself.

I used to wonder what Francis would be like if he wasn't so short. It will be funny if the answer is: Crawford.

Yup. He's raw. He'll need time. He reminds me of Pip in his rookie year. The tools are there and I'm confident he'll get there.


As for Brand, I'll say this: If 20 and 10 is soooooo meaningless why havn't more rookies done it? Why don't more players do it?

Thanos hit the nail on the head.


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You just might be right about Brand never being the best PF in the game, but does that matter if he's a 20 and 10 guy and can hold his own against ANY PF in the game? Right now, today, there is not a PF in the game who can say he 'owns' Brand. What do I care about number 1 and 2 and three when I have that?

A point guard Francis can't surpass? Gary and Kidd are the undisputed best in the league, and Marbury torched Francis last time he was in Houston... Give it time. Lots and lots of it.



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Thanos is the man! I concur. Especially about the defense. That Marbury bolt of lightning on the fourth of March amused me...he even got six assists in and 3 rips...



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Okay, okay, valid arguments for both sides. Both players have done very well and probably will be great quite soon. I'm just glad Chicago picked Brand cause it worked out for the Rocks. I don't think a trade would've gone down for Brand with Vancouver, and that would've left the Rocks stagnant last year. Now let's kill this thread and move on to the real game action.

 

Cool. I came back to say peace to everyone...I'll be out of town w/o a pc for the next week or so. Nice chatting with you chaps...



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lets get this over with..brand or not chicago still sucks okay?

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I think people are forgetting that we are the rockets...

WE DONT REBUILD...WE RELOAD....remember that..

 

Franics is farther along than Kidd or Payton was at the same stage of their development. He also has far more scoring skills and better outside shot (the others have improved over many years). Thus it is not that far fetched (not saying for sure it will happen) to think he will be as good or better than them, and I would say 3 years is not much of a stretch either (Payton especially will be getting older too). Of course Marbury was farther alone than Payton and Kidd too at comparable stages (and was comparable to Stevie), though I think Marbury's mental approach to the game is his limiting factor.

I just don't see Brand having that same potential. Brand is a terrific player, but I don't think he every will be all NBA material. Brand plays a position that he could adapt right away too in the NBA, and was already well refined in this position before ever stepping foot on an NBA court. There is much less room for him to grow. He doesn't have KG or Webber's, or Wallace type athleticism, Malone's touch from the field (Malone was also more athletic than Brand in his early years), or Duncan's blend of size, touch and good athleticsm.

I will say this, I might (might not also) take Brand over McDyess or Wallace. Despite though guys having more potential I like Brand's focus much, much better. So Brand fits right in with these all-star but not all-NBA caliber players, pretty good company. But I'll take Stevie for his all-NBA potential, of course he may not get there, but I'd take that chance.

Oh one final point, I did think Brand had a slightly more compelling case for ROY because he finished stronger. But hey, I am not complaining and think the split vote was defensible as well.


[This message has been edited by Desert Scar (edited October 12, 2000).]

 

gettinbranded...torched? Stephon scored 14 last time he was in houston. all the good power forwards(duncnan/garnett/webber) all averaged around 24 ppg a game against brand. While kidd(it wouldnt let me into paytons player file for some reason) averaged 14 ppg against francis. i think that stevie has the ability to surpass kidd and possibly payton. Steve is more athletic and has a better "j" than both of them. Steve averaged 6 assists last year to kidds 10. with kidd's supporting cast i think steve would have got 8 apg, and over the years that number will improve. The only thing he might not be able to reach is payton's defense, but he will come close because he is so dedicated. he spent hte summer in the gym and weightroom working on defense. But Francis vs. Brand well, only time will tell but i predict steve winning it in the end.