I wouldn't be surprised if Francis has a great year. I wouldn't be surprised if Dwayne Wade didn't. Marbury will have a good year next year too. Wade is an excellent dribble penetrator like Francis, and Shaq is right there in the paint commanding 2 to 3 defenders. He'll get whalloped. The Orlando GM made some very savvy moves. I really like his trade for Battie, but I don't think Gooden fit with Steve's brand of basketball. Steve and Cuttino need a couple of very strong frontcourt roleplayers who block shots and board. I would have picked Okafor to play alongside Cato, but Cato and Battie fit the bill. Steve really didn't fit in JVG's inside-out offense. He will definitely put up some numbers, and I am thinking of joining a fantasy basketball league and pick Cuttino and Steve up. If Steve does put up great numbers, I'm pretty sure there will be many folks here pining for him. There's no way Steve would flourish under JVG's offense.
Miles to go. New York Knicks, 2004 39-43 Phoenix 2003 44-38 Phoenix 2002 36-46 New Jersey 2001 26-56 New Jersey 2000 31-51 New Jersey 1999 25-25 Minnesota 1998 45-37 Minnesota 1997 40-42 I'm not sure what was so awesome about Stephon's mentality in 1999-2002 when he couldn't stand that Garnett was the man so demanded a trade, played on a downward spiraling Nets team, then took Phx into the lotto. Hell, aside from that one blip in 2003, when the Rox faded down the stretch and Amare had a strong stretch as the Suns edged the rox, it's been pretty much downhill for Stephon since his 2nd season in Minnesota.
One thing... This may have already been addressed, but I didn't read all of the posts. Brand has had every opportunity to succeed. In Chicago, he had Artest and Brad Miller, both of which have gone on to become all-stars. In LA, he had a team of Kandi, Odom, Miller, Q, and Maggette. Sure, you can say they were playing selfish ball, but if Brand had stepped up and became a lockeroom leader, and just told everyone on that team to get their heads out of their asses and play ball, that team would have made the playoffs. Problem with Elton is that he's not a leader. He's too nice for his own good. I would not have traded Francis for him.
The guy usually leads all PGs in shots and is top 3 in assists, he does that by holding the ball longer than anyone else in the NBA, no matter how good his team could be if he shared the ball he'll still force a team to do that, THATS what selfish about him. Francis and Marbury both were asked to hold back their game at the start of last season, Francis did and the Rockets won, Marbury refused and the Suns sank to last place, that should tell you something. That's not what that stat is all about, if you even pay attention when you watch him play you'd see that MOST of his assists come off of reacting to the defense while trying to score. Ever notice that ALL of his teams HAVE to play that stupid pick and roll? Lets do the same stupid play over and over again and let his teammates stand around waiting to catch and shoot, that happens no matter how good his teammates can be when they have the ball in their hands. 1st team what? I know you don't mean 1st Team All-NBA. All Star, yes, but so was Francis. The very NEXT season was he "vastly" different? No, he was better but not different, he came into the league as a very versatile player and just improved year after year. You have to be kidding with that Yao KG comparison, KG was better than Yao at 20 years old, he was already a leader at that age and his teams undisputed best player. Stoudamire was better than Yao that season, that's why he got the Rookie of the Year award. Yao's season was basically him adjusting in the beginning, getting used to it in the middle, and then fading down the stretch. On the other hand Stoudamire kept improving as the season went along, he doesn't have much of a game on offense that's true, but he still scores as much as Yao mostly because he will hardly ever give the ball back while Yao gives it back TOO much. Mobley compares to Marion? How? Marion does much more, like doing something on offense without having to have the ball in his hands, he plays great off the ball. Furthermore, he's an All Star every season, Mobley is never an All Star. Joe Johnson was not a scrub, when Penny was gone he did everything he would do, but play good in the clutch, he also started in front of Penny plenty even when he was healthy. He's had talent his whole career and was just waiting for Marbury to leave because there was no way he was going to show it with him there. Just look at his stats last season with Marbury there, and compare them to what he did after he left, do that to ALL of the Suns, it's a good bet that everyone improved. You left off the most improtant role player on the Suns that season, Bo Outlaw, and the Rockets had injuries as well with Rice, and Taylor missing games, I think Cuttino missed more than 10 too, don't forget Rudy's cancer. Since when are All Stars and Rookies of the year "role players", their role players were Hardaway, Outlaw, and Johnson. He didn't make them tough against the Spurs, he actually made them easier to beat because he kept shooting, and shooting, and shooting, depsite the fact that he probably hit 33% of his shots at BEST. They were in LAST place WITH Marbury last season, the only difference was that guys like Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudamire gained valuable experience and will be better players next season with Nash running the show.
I am not saying the guy isn't a punk or destructive over the long term, but in terms of court discipline and production in running the point (point guard), the stats don't lie, Marbury is worlds better than Francis. You just can't ignore a high 2s A/TO from a high 1s like Francis has. As for the records, you might as well put Francis's teams wins-ls there too. So if I understand, Marbury dominantes the ball, but still gets himself or his guys solid shots while more or less taking care of the ball while Francis has done largely the same except manages to work in 50% more TOs per possesion. Most guys in the NBA live of other guys creating space for them and then they knock down those shots. No he wasn't. Stoud had an extremely rough offensive game and shaky defensive but had highlight real dunks and was the media darling. No question Yao was the player with greater impact. Joe Johnson was a scrub then, a lot like Eddie Griffin (just compare their numbers and %s). He was a very inconsistent shooter and defensive player--both for Boston (no Marbury) and Phx. Now he has improved a lot, but IMO that has a lot more to do with his maturity as a player than Marbury leaving. I was thinking Steph was 1st to arrive on Minny, and Yao's 1st two seasons were better than KG's first two seasons. The latter part is true (Yao was better his 1st two years), but my recollection was off and KG was already into his 2nd year when Steph arrived. I would agree KG was better then Yao is now when Steph left Minny (99 I believe). Role players (really super role players) can be all-stars--Brand, Ben Wallace, Pippen, Rodman, Mutumbo, etc. Marion is a role player in the sense you could not build a good team with him the focus. Marion's forte is defense, rebouding, and playing off other, more creative, offensive players "super" role player if you will. As before, everybody knew Yao was the best rookie, Stouds stats came off mainly off garbage play while the opponents focused on how to defend Marbury and block out Marion so Stoud roamed. Stoud was definetly a role player for them that year. As for Marbury making them easier to beat in the playoffs, that is crazy. The Suns gave them more fight than any other team, and Marbury dazzled while guys like Nash and Kidd were less than steller. Actually after Marbury the next most effective PG against the Spurs was probably Van Exel, somewhat similar style but even more gun happy. Go look at the stats another poster showed from that series, Marbury was the one guy the Suns did not have an answer for.
"he does that by holding the ball longer than anyone else in the NBA, no matter how good his team could be if he shared the ball he'll still force a team to do that, THATS what selfish about him" This is truly unbelievable. You have no stats to prove your point of him holding the ball (did you watch McGrady or Iverson at all last year???? Apparently not, hahah I can't wait to watch Yao's face as McGrady shoots 30-ft. fadeaways with the shotclock running down). "Joe Johnson was not a scrub, when Penny was gone he did everything he would do, but play good in the clutch, he also started in front of Penny plenty even when he was healthy. " You then blame his ineptitude on Marbury, not Penny. Penny was playing in front of him, and he looked totally lost in most games his first two years. He played great last year, and to blame this on Marbury is absurd. He plays 3, Marbury plays 1. He got more time b/c of Penny, not Stef. "He didn't make them tough against the Spurs, he actually made them easier to beat because he kept shooting, and shooting, and shooting, depsite the fact that he probably hit 33% of his shots at BEST. They were in LAST place WITH Marbury last season, the only difference was that guys like Joe Johnson and Amare Stoudamire gained valuable experience and will be better players next season with Nash running the show." This quote shows you just don't know what you're talking about. Did you not see the stats I posted regarding Marbury's series vs. the Spurs?? STATS VERSUS THE SPURS Marbury's Stats that series vs. Parker: Game 1: (Suns win on Marbury 3 pointer) Marbury: 26 points, 6 assists (GAME WINNER) Parker: 7 points, 7 assists Game 2: Marbury: 32 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists Parker: 2 points, 2 assists GAME 3: Marbury: 25 points, 7 assists Parker: 29 points, 3 assists, 6 turnovers (Duncan bails out Spurs with 23-rebound effort) GAME 4: Marbury: 18 points, 7 assists Parker: 19 points, 5 assists GAME 5: (at this point, each of Marbury's ankles needed surgery b/c they were so mangled. What a warrior): Marbury: 13 points, 7 assists Parker: 7 points, 2 assists, 4 turnovers GAME 6: Marbury: 18 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists Parker: 17 points, 1 assist Before cracking jokes about Marbury not being a warrior, keep in mind his minutes played throughout the series: 53, 45, 43, 44, 46, 44 Man, he really played horrible that series, even though he played virtually every minute (while injured), hit the game-winning shot, and played very well in the other win. Do you know what you're saying? This would be like if I said 2+2=4 and you replying with "actually, it's 5 because sometimes it's 2+2+1." It just makes no sense, you're refuting fact. How can you look at Marbury's numbers throughout that series, while BOTH OF HIS ANKLES are injured, and say he hurt the Suns? This defies logic. "New York Knicks, 2004 39-43 Phoenix 2003 44-38 Phoenix 2002 36-46 New Jersey 2001 26-56 New Jersey 2000 31-51 New Jersey 1999 25-25 Minnesota 1998 45-37 Minnesota 1997 40-42" With the Knicks last year, they won more than 50% of their games. With Phoenix, he leads them to the playoffs one year. With New Jersey, it was a disaster, unlike that other guy I'm not going to argue facts. With Minnesota, they go to the playoffs, that was every bit Marbury's team it was Garnetts. Here are Francis' career records: 99-00: 34-48 00-01: 45-37 01-02: 28-54 02-03: 43-39 03-04: 45-37 1 playoff appearance and 3 above-.500 seasons This versus Marbury's 3 playoff appearances and 3-above.500 seasons (along with a .500 season and a 40-42 season). I don't know how this can be disputed. It's fine if you don't like Marbury, most people don't, but when looking at facts: 1) Marbury puts up better numbers in points, assists, turnovers, assists to turnovers. 2) The retort to this is he's selfish and his teams don't win, while they do win at a rate equal to or greater than Francis' teams. Therefore, he's a better player.
I actually ran the numbers but didn't bother posting them. Guess who averages out better - even if you count the abysmal 2002 season where the Rox lost tons of games without him and were near .500. Hint - he's 0-6 vs. Houston dating back to 2003.
14-21 pre-trade, 25-22 post-trade. Phoenix was 12-23 pre trade, 17-30 post trade (slight improvement) Either way it adds up to a 37-45 record - another banner season. He lead them to 44 wins one year -- inferior to both of Francis' best seasons with the rockets. He also lead them from the 50 win playoff team to a 30 win lottery team in 02, and was doing it again when he was traded. yup. They sneak in at 40-42 one year and put up 45 the next when KG started to emerge, and it was most definitely not Marbury's team. He couldn't accept that, that's why he told them he wouldn't re-sign and forced the trade. Thank god they listened to him. Not if you run the numbers, even for 9years vs. 5 years, Francis' teams had a better percentage than Marbury -- which improves even more if you count only the games Francis played. If you run it for the last 5 years alone, the difference becomes even more pronounced.
Yet for some selfish reason, he forces a trade and ends up being branded a loser for 4 straight years. Marbury's only had 2 above .500 seasons. You can't count his 25-22 record w/ the Knicks last year, because he left Phoenix w/ a 12-22 record. That's a 37-44 record for the season. So Marbury has had 2 winning seasons out of 8. Francis has had 3 winning seasons out of 5- in the WEST. Forget the injuries argument, because I haven't pointed out the fact that Francis' 28-win season came while he had blinding migraines from his Meniere's disease and only played 57 games. If you want to take out Marbury's last season w/ NJ where K-Mart was hurt and Kittles was out, then his career W-L % is .477. Francis' W-L %, without his 01-02 disease-plagued season, is .509. Looks like team success shouldn't be considered even. Also, if you look at Marbury's first playoff season, that Minnesota team was a 40-win team. Steve's had a 45- and a 43-win team miss the playoffs. Go ahead and use those stats and numbers to support your case. But don't use team success, because Marbury clearly falls short of Francis in that aspect.
Francis would have to average something like 5 TOs a season to get 50% more per season. Most guys do, however with Marbury they HAVE to live off those shots because they will NOT have the ball long enough to do something with it. Rookie of the Year=best stats, see Lebron winning it over playoff bound Carmelo. Yao had the greater impact on defense, but on offense Stoudamire was better AND he didn't fade down the stretch. I guess he matured a lot after Marbury left, that's when he started showing he was worth a 1st round pick. No they didn't, they won the first game because Tim Duncan choked at the line and then Stoudamire hits that LUCKY bank to send it into overtime, and then Marbury hits an even LUCKIER 3 point shot to win it. The next game they won was because of Penny Hardaway, and one of their scrub centers, either Voskul or Tsakalidis. That's what overrates Marbury more than anything, people just look at stats without even watching him play, and you know why they don't watch him play? Because his teams usually stink nobody wants to watch sorry teams. Did you watch him, as a PG, shot 25 shots a game in that series? Shooting 33%? He hits one LUCKY shot against the Spurs and that makes him a playoff legend? Please, that guy chokes in every playoff series he's been in, he shoots 40% against the Sonics a few years ago and KG probably gets out of the 1st round a lot sooner.
Well, you have no stats to prove that he didn't and McGrady and Iverson did, do you? Fact of the matter is that he holds the ball A LOT, I think it's more than any other player in the league, but it's debatable I guess. Actually I never said he sucked, I said he couldn't show what he could really do with Marbury on his team, nobody who needs the ball to produce can. No he plays the 2, that's why he or Penny would be the one starting at SG, the time on the floor doesn't matter anyway, the time with the ball in his hands does. Now explain to me why the Suns got more production out of him after Marbury left, put aside totals and use points per minute or assists per minute if you want to. I'm not blind guy. I asked you how many shots he took, and what % he shot. Still waiting for a response, but I can tell you right now that it was probably around 25 shots and 33-35%, all of that from a PG. Oh and how many assists did he average? He hurt the Suns because as a "PG" he was shooting 25 times a game, and EVERYONE knows that if you let Marbury shoot all he wants his teams will ALMOST always lose. The Suns were a better team when he was shooting less and giving the ball up more, they could of won 50 if he would of done that all season long and still averaged something like 15 and 8, but like a fool he HAS to feed his urge to get 20 and 10 even though it hurts his teams. 14-21 pre-trade, 25-22 post-trade. Phoenix was 12-23 pre trade, 17-30 post trade (slight improvement) Either way it adds up to a 37-45 record - another banner season. -Thank you Sam Fisher! I'll give you that, EVEN though the Rockets had more to do with that accomplishment than he did, but like the great Sam Fisher says, He also lead them from the 50 win playoff team to a 30 win lottery team in 02, and was doing it again when he was traded. Now that's just garbage! If that was true, he would of done something in New Jersey the following year and the Wolves would of sucked since he was such an important piece to those teams. With a role similar to Francis' role last season with the Rockets he has only made it once, twice if you count the Knicks. For the 100th time, SO WHAT? He usually puts up better numbers than Kidd, Bibby, Davis, Nash, any PG in the NBA, and he always will, doesn't make him better though. False. Just ask Sam Fisher, and please Francis has NEVER been on teams as BAD (record wise) as Marbury's teams in New Jersey or two of them in Phoenix. The only seasons that compare to those were his rookie year, when Hakeem and Barkley missed most of the season, and his 3rd year, when the Rockets went 2-23 without him.
I was referring to the like 2.7 A/TO ratio to 1.7 A/TO, Francis rate of TOs per assist, the major statistical figure for PG efficiency, is about 50% higher. No doubt when you considered blocks and all levels of shooting % (FG, FG, PPS) Yao had the superior stats for the season. The reason given for voting for Amare was not his stats, it was that his team made the playoffs, of course the voters flipped this year. Basically these voters went on hype (Amare, Lebron), not anything more objective like stats (where Yao and Lebron had the edge) or team accomplishments (Amare and Melo). A lot of people would say this is why Francis is no longer a Rocket. So since Parker was had a better record than all PGs the last 2 years I suppose he has a case for being the best? Don't think so. Individual stats are first to go on, not the whole story, but 1st.
I think what JumpMan's trying to say is that the Suns weren't better off completely without Marbury, but without Marbury jacking up as many shots as he did. Of course the Suns are better w/ Marbury, but may be even better if Marbury played more of a point guard role instead of seeing his assist numbers drop down to 5.7 in the playoffs.
Hey, counting results in game logs can be tedious. And my information was more accurate; the Suns were 12-22 w/ Marbury, not 12-23. I have their respective career W-L %'s too.
Well, it's not the major statistical figure, but I stand corrected. That has to be the most overrated stat on this forum though, I mean lets get on Francis for being one of the most turnover prone PGs, but we'll NEVER mention that Yao is one of the most turnover prone Cs. I'm not sure if the voters get that into stats, Amare averaged the same amount of points, more rebounds, minutes per game, AND he didn't fade down the stretch. I don't know about hype though, Yao's hype last season was bigger than any rookie since probably Shaq before him(?), I mean was Amare on national TV as a rookie? That's funny. Who needed the ball? Mobley? He got it. Taylor? He got it too. Yao? He got it more than anyone, but like I said he would give it back WAY too much. Has anyone ever complained on the Rockets? Hmm... I remember Glen Rice did, does he count? Kenny Thomas got it plenty, James Posey could of used it more, but he played better than he did on the Nuggets with thee Rockets anyway. We're talking about Joe Johnson here, not an elite player by any means, but that's how bad it's been on the Rockets when you can't name a player who has as much talent as him after Steve Francis, and Yao Ming. Still, he's not on the Rockets no more because that's what it took to get Tracy McGrady. No, but he does have a case for being one of the best, since he is the second best player on that team. The 1st to go on is by watching him play, forget stats, watch him play and then see what you think.
IMO point guards top priorities are ball distribution and efficiency (best measured with assists, A/TO), scoring/scoring efficiency (PPG, %s), and defense (mostly based on watching them play). In terms of offensive impact, I think stats are very revealing about player performance, defensively, much less so. Yao's differential in blocks and shooting percentages far out-weighed the differential in rebouding. The party line was Amare's team made the playoffs. Of course this changed this year, otherwise Melo would have been ROY because he and his team finshed stronger than for Lebron. As for hype, you had the overwhelming majority of nitwit media saying Yao was unproven in real compeition, would fail and some American college kid should have been the #1 pick. You even had players like Ben Wallace out to humiliate him in internation comp. For Amare, as well as Lebron, there was almost no negativity at all. Even after terrible outings, it would be "yeah he made some youthfull mistakes tonight, but did you see that dunk". They both were handled with kid gloves by the media. Based on watching him play and statistics in no way should Parker be considered a top 5 PG. Probably lower end of top 10. Guys like TD or Shaq make a lot of guys look better than they are. I think some of the Rocket fans thinking Parker is a better PG or player than Francis totally miss the advantages Parker has had. Just look at the production and popular opinion of Bibby when he played for a crummy team versus an outstanding team--the percention has changed (from "failing potential" to "one of the best") but it really is mostly the same Mike Bibby just now in a much more favorable situation.
