I would be interested in seeing a poll not about who is better, but who you would rather want on your team.
I automatically throw out Elton Brand. Why? Because it's the old 'apples vs. oranges' deal. They play two different positions and thus bring different things to the table. Francis vs. Marbury--Marbury's a better point guard but I (can't believe it) will say Francis is the better player. Last year, Francis had shown that he is capable of having some good shot selections and he showed us that he can lead a team. Marbury...his assists per game is ridiculous but is he REALLY getting his teammates involved to where they can win every game? And Francis also has shown a lot more emotion and heart than Marbury. There's a reason why Marbury's with his 4th team right now. Francis vs. Pierce--I just don't know. Am I comparing Francis with the Pierce of old--the one that was destined to be a top 5 player? Or am I comparing Francis with the Pierce of now--the one that has poor shot selection and can't do much else but score? I really thought Pierce had it going when he tag-teamed with Walker but after Walker left...eh. I mean it's hard to win with that kind of supporting cast around you, but McGrady still performed well with a crap roster..so why can't Pierce? Makes you think... Francis vs. Iverson--Don't know....I'll say push. The only reason this would be a draw is because of Iverson has put high mileage on that body of his. If he wasn't always so banged up, I'd pick Iverson. All in all, I don't doubt that Francis is a good player...he's a pretty good player actually. But as a PG, he's average at best. Comparing him just as a player/guard, he's one of the best.
I have him better than Brand. Brand has been around some talent (Odom, Maggette, Kandi, Dre, Q) and done nothing as a team leader. Brand just seems like a role player extrodinare--he does everything really well and puts up outstanding stats but isn't a go to guy or special offensive player like the other 4 (nor a truly game changing defensive player like Ben Wallace or young Hakeem or Mutumbo). Francis teams typically have outperformed Brand's team, even when Franics has hade jack to play with. AI was awesume. The guy was a scoring champ and lead the 6ers to the finals. In his peak none of the other guys listed have been close to as dominant on the floor. Pierce is 2nd on the list and given he is a better offensive and better defensive player than Francis it is hard to see how Francis could be better than him. Marbury is close to Francis, but is more efficent. Much better a/to over career and slightly higher scoring average--hard to argue Steve is better than him as well. Yeah Marbury is a punk, but he is a slightly better player than Francis. Also, Marbury carried Phx to the playoffs on his back 2 years ago and kept them darn competitive with the world champs in the 1st round. That year he outwilled Francis for the last playoff spot--edge there too. Francis only made the playoffs as the 2nd best player on his team.
If you want a Franchise Player: Iverson > Pierce > Franchise = Marbury > Brand (great > good > medicore = medicore > below average) or a complementary star Brand = Pierce > Iverson > Marbury > Franchise (great = great > good > above average > below average) Iverson now is an above average Franchise player or good complementary star.
To me, the argument of Francis vs Iverson is over when you look at how many times Iverson has scored 50+ in the playoffs granted, Francis has only played 5 playoff games but Francis has never scored 50 in the pros
"Kevin Garnett LED that team, they didn't miss a beat they season after he left and was replaced with Terrell Brandon." The season before Marbury left they were 45-37, the season after they were 25-25. Looks like they missed quite a few beats. "He didn't win a playoff series with him either, they were never good enough until last year and don't forget why he left Minnesota." Right, my point is people blame Minnesota's lack of playoff success on Marbury when they lost several years in a row after he left. He left Minnesota in an attempt to get dealt to the Knicks, it blew up, and the Nets picked him up. "They were the EXACT same team that made the playoffs the year before, the only difference was replacing Sam Cassell with Marbury." That is almost entirely true, though they were banged up with Kittles, KVH, and Jayson Williams missing time and no real C without Seikaly. I'll concede this point though. "Martin didn't miss 20 games, Kerry Kittles was a loss but it's not like he would of made that much of a difference. They only won 25 games, with him they win 30???" Martin missed 14 games, I'm sorry, and if you don't think Kittles is that much of a loss watch the Nets as they finish last in the Atlantic this year (Kmart is a huge loss also, but his outside shooting and solid D was extremely big). "Two different coaches because he got one fired, they went from 50+ win team to not even winning 30 games all because they traded the best PG in the league for the most overrated." Kidd is the best PG in the league, no doubt, but I think the dubious honor of most overrated definitely belongs to Francis. He's losing this debate, and it's a Rockets msg. board. He's never led a team to the playoffs (Marbury has), he puts up inferior stats, and he could very well be on his 3rd team after this season (people say Marbury's been on 4 teams. Francis basically was drafted by the Grizz, demanded a trade, just like Marbury, went to the Rockets, had mediocre success, and got dealt for a better player, just like Marbury. Now he's on his 3rd team, where I can envision him getting dealt again. Wow, suddenly its not as lopsided). "You give Jason Kidd, Sam Cassell, Mike Bibby, Steve Nash, Baron Davis, or Steve Francis that team and they win 50. That team was so loaded with talent that plenty of other PGs in the league would have a winning record too." This is the most ridiculous thing you wrote. They win 6 more games b/c of a differnet point guard? Please, one player would determine 1-2 games, not 6. And if I recall, Marbury hit a handful of game winners that season at the buzzer, so he a few of those games himself. You follow this retort by writing "he got lucky in the playoffs, meh" followed by an emoticon? Are you just conceding the point right there? He absolutely dominated Parker for the beginning of that series, got injured, and still played even keel. He won TWO of the games by himself, and pushed the Spurs to the same limit they got pushed to by the KIDD-led Nets, the Bryant/O'Neal led Lakers, and Dallas. Marbury's Stats that series vs. Parker: Game 1: (Suns win on Marbury 3 pointer) Marbury: 26 points, 6 assists (GAME WINNER) Parker: 7 points, 7 assists Game 2: Marbury: 32 points, 10 rebounds, 5 assists Parker: 2 points, 2 assists GAME 3: Marbury: 25 points, 7 assists Parker: 29 points, 3 assists, 6 turnovers (Duncan bails out Spurs with 23-rebound effort) GAME 4: Marbury: 18 points, 7 assists Parker: 19 points, 5 assists GAME 5: (at this point, each of Marbury's ankles needed surgery b/c they were so mangled. What a warrior): Marbury: 13 points, 7 assists Parker: 7 points, 2 assists, 4 turnovers GAME 6: Marbury: 18 points, 7 rebounds, 2 assists Parker: 17 points, 1 assist Before cracking jokes about Marbury not being a warrior, keep in mind his minutes played throughout the series: 53, 45, 43, 44, 46, 44 And he put up far-better numbers against a far-better defensive team than Francis did vs. the Lakers this year. I still say it's a push b/c neither has had great playoff success. Comparing Francis to Pierce or Iverson is an insult to those players. Those are players who've put teams on their backs and said "Hop on, I'm about to carry you." Even Marbury's done this. Francis hasn't, and until he has, he's a great PG (I'm not dissing Francis, I think he's a great guard but doesn't have his head screwed on) who never carried his team.
I think I'm biased in that I always put more stock in international ball than most, so the olympics have pushed Stevie past Marbury for me. Brand and Pierce get better stats than him, but Brand has always been on losing teams with lots of talent, and Pierce to me is a guy who could be all-world with his all-around skills, but he's ultimately too selfish (yes, I mean more than Francis, as he showed in the Worlds). So to me with those guys as difference-makers it's kind of a toss-up, and I believe Iverson is clearly better. I voted that he's in the middle of the pack, though really to me Francis is equal in value to Brand and Pierce, and Iverson is on top with Marbury on the bottom.
That's a damn good idea. Which is why I went out and got the unbiased opinion on another message board, just to further prove pgabriel's theory wrong. It's silly arguing that he's as good as Pierce, and it's silly arguing that he's any better than Pierce, Brand, Marbury, or Iverson (even now)... So I went and made a poll on the Real GM message boards, on the Chicago message board go check out the results. 22 votes so far, none for Steve Francis... Pierce is first, Brand is second, Francis is dead last.... Quote: "Anything Francis can do, Pierce can do better" Francis got zero votes out of 22... NONE.... Go see for yourself... The fact that Pierce shoots a better percentage from 3-pt land, while taking mroe shots from 3-pt land shows that he's a better shooter... The fact that Francis gets most of his shots at the cup and Pierce takes a large majority of his shots from the outside, and that Pierce STILL has a slightly better percentage speaks volumes... pgabriel, you didn't reply to my previous post, do you have nothing to say?
Sane, I'm tired of you stalking me. I don't know what you think you proved with your previous post. You say Iverson scores more than Francis and shows he takes 9 more shots, what's the point of that. Of course he scores more on nine more shots than Francis, and it really isn't helping his team that much. Francis shooting more lay-ups than Pierce. I don't know about that argument considering Francis is a 6'3" point guard and Pierce is a 6'5" shooting guard. I've seen Pierce drive to the whole a lot. A whole 2 more minutes a game. I guess that makes a HUGE difference as you claim. As far as me comparing career numbers, I really don't know what you expect me to do. You might want to take out Pierce's first year because he was fairly young, but they want improve that much. The fact is they have improved and now fallen. So your argument that has been improving every year is false. The fact is you started a poll here, it didn't prove what you wanted, so just get off it. If anything the poll proves what I said. I don't know why you think this board is biased with all the anti-Francis posters on here.
Very poor arguments again, and you're running out of those as well. Iverson takes 9 more shots, averages more assists, and percenteage-wise is right there with Francis. Am I right or wrong? I didn't say Francis gets to the basket more... I said the majority of Francis' baskets are right at the cup, while Pierce shoots from the outside very often. Again, Pierce takes WAY mroe shots than Francis, but he maintains a better percenteage, he plays better defense, and he gets 4 or 5 assists per game. Francis playing 2 more minutes is jsut to show that Paul Pierce's numbers are better in spite of playing less minutes. I'm stating facts. Am I right or wrong? The poll proved exactly what I wanted. Even on a biased bored, around 80% don't consider him better than those 4, and around 65% consider two of them better than him. I STARTED A POLL SOMEWHERE ELSE, and don't act like you didn't get that. On an unbiased board, go check out the results. Francis is dead last, zero votes. This board is clearly biased. When we started the "should we boo or cheer Francis" thread, the results clearly showed that the posters here are biased towards Francis. If you want to argue this, I will be glad to start another poll to prove it. Just give me the green light ify ou still want to argue this point. I will prove it to you with solid facts if you like.
Wow, you are so obsessed with former Rockets, you go around starting polls? you should really chill. Anyway, David Stern started an unscientific poll too, and Francis kicked Marbury's ass three years running.
Not really, they were 7-8 seeds both years, not positive if it went 8,7 or 7, 8. Ok. Please, he wanted to move closer to home and far away from KG, not just to the Knicks, he wanted more attention and individual glory. No he's not, there are more people that have said he's better or equal to Marbury, he's losing the debate to Iverson and Pierce and rightfully so! Marbury had the rookie of the year that season and more talent everywhere else, Francis had the runner up (that faded down the stretch instead of getting better like Stoudamire did) and Cuttino Mobley. Who cares about stats when talking about Marbury, he'll make sure that he gets his FIRST, if the teams wins that's just an added incentive for him. Until Francis is on his 4th team and around 20th coach you can't say anything, Marbury has been traded for lesser player(s) twice already, once for Brandon and once for a few role players. Envision IF it happens, Francis is on his second team after being the main piece in a trade for a top five talent in the NBA. Yes, they do win 6 more and advance in the playoffs because of a different PG, just watch that team next season, or better yet remember what the Nets did after getting Jason Kidd. Ok, so Kerry Kittles isn't "extremely big" afterall??? Not really, he sucked during those playoffs, that shot was EXTREMELY lucky, you gotta admit that much, that shot was luckier than Stoudamire's bank that sent it into OT! In the only other game they won who won it for them? Wasn't Marbury that's for sure. Are you sure about that? What % did he shoot? How many shots did he take?
Lets compare their numbers, Marbury is in the 2nd column. Ppg 19.3 20.2 APG 6.4 8.9 RPG 5.5 3.2 topg 3.7 3.1 A/TO 1.7 2.9 SPG 1.6 1.6 FG% 43 43 3p% 35 32 FT% 79 82 There really is no comparison, Marbury is ahead in five stats to two. Further, if you focus on traditional PG roles, including total assists and A/TO--Marbury destroys Francis. Also consider Marbury entered the league at a much younger age, that can't hurt his case either. Interestingly, even as like a 19 year old rookie, Marbury had APG and A/TO numbers Francis has not approched in his best season. How about team success? Marbury has been to the playoffs 3 times, Francis once. As a player, and especially as a PG, there is no question Marbury is better. Francis may be more likeable, but he has a lot to prove now with Orlando to make a case he is an equal or better player than Marbury or anyone else on the list sans the never-been-to-the-playoffs-at-all Brand. BTW Pierce beats or equals Francis in every stat except APG and A/TO--not surprising given Pierce plays off the ball. player
So what? Marbury cares about those numbers before anything else, he goes out and plays like he has to prove that he's the best PG in the NBA because of the numbers he puts up, doesn't matter to him if he wins or loses though. Marbury has only been there once without KG, for Minnesota Brandon was equal to Marbury, so was Troy Hudson, and Cassell was much better. That season with Phoenix Marbury had WAY more than Francis did, the better rookie, Penny Hardaway, and an All Star in Marion, and they only finished ONE game ahead of the Rockets.
Assist stats from team to team vary. In 1985, Lucas averaged a WHOPPING 8.8 assists per game. Since the year 1991, we haven't had anyone on our team get 7 or more assists per game. That's a span of 13 years. Francis has led our team in assists the last 5 consecutive years, averaging a little less than 6 & a half per game. In a team that traditionally doesn't amass a whole heck-of-a-lotta assists (even in a championship season, our assist leader was averaging under 5 a game!), Francis has gotten more than his fair share. Comparing numbers can really fool ya.
I have a hard time fathoming how having so many more assists and vastly superior A/TO could be construed as just padding stats. Almost by defintion those stats reflect unselfishness and discipline, at least in terms of on the court play (it does not mean you are not a jackass off the court of course). Yeah, and Francis has been there zero times w/o the 1st team all-star Yao. Further, KG is a vastly different player than when Marbury played with him. Yao has been a better player the last 2 years than KG was his 1st two years. As for the Phx-Houston comparison, I beg to differ Phx had more talent if you take Francis and Marbury out of the equation. Yao (1st team all-star, though should have been a back-up) and Mobley compared pretty well to Marion (all-star back-up) and the zero offensive game Stoud as the core players. Further, in terms of role players, Phx had lots of injuries and had to play scrubs like Joe Johnson (he sucked worse than Griffin then), Voskal, Scot Williams, Langy, and Jacobsen that year, etc. Those guys made KT/Posey, MoT, Rice, Cato and Mooch look like world beaters. Also, even when Penny wasn't injured he wasn't anything special then, certainly not close to Cat Mobley as a player and more comparable to Rice or Mot. The bottom line is Marbury put that team on his back and carried a team with 2 excellent role players (Marion/Stoud) plus a bunch of scrubs to the playoffs, and made them a tough out versus the Spurs. Francis could not do any of those things. What Phx did w/o Marbury last year has pretty much showed he WAS that team.
To tell you the truth Marbury (never less than high 7s and assists and always over 2.5 A/TO) and Francis (mid 6s, below 2 A/TO) have been surprisingly consistent in assists and A/TO across a range of coaches, talents (horrible to pretty good) around them, and overall compentence of the team. What is amazing is Marbury showed the mentality and efficiency as a 19 year old rookie what Francis hasn't been able to do in his mid 20s for any year, with any coach, with any supporting cast. The trend is amazingly transparent. Francis as a point guard is not in the same league as Marbury. Now Francis as the player? Perhaps he is not that far from Marbury. But he has a lot to prove in Orlando to make a claim he is equal or better as a total player, and miles to go as a PG.
