"Right now I'd take Francis over Marbury and Iverson even though Iverson was a better player a couple of years ago and Marbury is debatable. I would take him over Brand, because even though Brand puts up good numbers they translate into nothing for his team. Paul Pierce is also very debatable. Their stats are very similar over, Francis is a better playmaker, Pierce a better defensive player." - pgabriel I saw this post, and I thought it deserves its own thread. I find it completely absurd. Francis hasn't achieved anything more than Marbury. He's achieved even less in terms of playoff appearances. However, Marbury has the betetr stats. Both are considered "whiny" and rightfull so. They are almost EXACTLY the same age. Who do you take? Marbury has more experience, has achieved more, has put up better stats, is on the Olympic squad, and has actually put up more than 6 assists.. In fact, he's been averaging around 8 or 9 assists per game. Brand has achieved absolutely nothing, so you can make a case here. Still, it's debatable. Brand doesn't complain, is consistent, and has never played on a good team. Bulls and Clippers? No chance to succeed. Francis made ONE playoff appearance, and that's it. If you have equal talent, you go for size, and that's a fact. As for Paul Pierce, I won't even bother arguing. The stats are NOT close. Paul Pierce can carry a crappy team on his own. Paul Pierce has made the playoffs a few times, and Paul Pierce can play good defense. He plays defense, he scores, he passes (great assist numbers) and he's a good shooter. Francis, who is a PG, cannot do what his position requires. He has never averaged 7 assists, never less than 3 TO's, and his ratio has always been horriffic. He's always been a good scorer, but last year even THAT went away without significant improvement in ANY other area. Should I even bother arguing Iverson's case? He's on the olympic team, one of the best players on the team, been to the NBA Finals, former scoring champion, was once considered the best player in the league, always playing through injury, and even at this age is betetr than Francis. When he played PG, he did a much better job than Francis, and when he switches back to PG this year, we'll see it again. It's crazy that anyone would actually say that Francis, even now, is better than Iverson. Francis is not a top 15 player, and the fact that you're REACHING by comparing him with these players (none of them a sure-fire top 10 player) is proof of Francis' calibre.
Pgab has zero credibility when talking about Francis, same as me. I have grown to despise him and his piss poor play on the Rockets so much, that I have a hard time being objective about him as a player. Pgab is the ultimate Francis fan boy, and seems to hold the exact opposite of my position. Francis is a good player.....not great.....and those mentioned are better than him...in my super skewed opinion. DD
He's better than all of them. His team will win a lot more than those guys will next season. All those guys have the same problem - they can't help their team. They just do their thing. This is just my opinion but... I think Steve probably is closest to understanding what it takes to win as a team, and being able to do something about it.
Using your logic, had the Rockets acquired Brand instead of McGrady, they'd win fewer games than with SF3. We'll have to agree to disagree on that one.
I rank them like this: 1. Paul Pierce -- Superstar, on par with McGrady. 2. Allen Iverson -- Getting older, but still good for another year or two. 3. Elton Brand -- Talented big man. 4. Stephon Marbury -- Ranked close to Francis, but Marbury gets the edge because he gets more assists. 5. Steve Francis -- Excellent rebounder for a guard, but makes bad court decisions. He has been playing the wrong position for the past four years.
Pierce's career stats 23 pts 6 boards 3 assists fg%43, 3ptfg% 35 Francis's career stats 19 pts 6 boards 6 assists fg% 43 3ptfg% 34 Francis is a point guard, he averages more assists, Pierce is a shooting guard, he averages more points. They shoot almost exactly the same shooting percentage. How is Pierce soooo much better than Francis. That's insane. Paul Pierce, "great assists numbers" that's absurd.
Pierce had 5.1 assist last year...about one less than Francis. That's pretty close, especially since you're discussing SGs Vs. PGs, but of course Steve never puts up a lot of assists. It's unusual that you actually round DOWN Pierce's stats when comparing their career numbers, most people would think theres a good difference between 3 and 3.6.
C'mon, each brings different things to the table -- and to their teams. I don't understand why Starbury is not dominating at the O Games. I think Brand is an elite 4, but not showcased. AI is terrific, but a team may need to be built around him to succeed. Pound for pound the toughest SOB around. PP? See Brand. Elite but in generally poor situations. Like Brand, the losing continues. Francis is good, very good. His game is flawed but his heart isn't. He has game. Houston will miss him, tho TMc will bring greater glories etc.
Elton Brand's proving himself as a Shareef Abdur-Rahim type, good stats, bad teams. I used to be a big fan of his, but his stats ring hollow this deep into his career. Iverson was much better than anyone else on this list at one point, but age and injuries have taken a toll if last season's any indication. Without his explosive first step, he's a very mediocre guard.
To add, every team that Starbury has joined has declined in the season after he joined. And every team that he left has gotten better. That's a damning indicator, imo.
This is SO dumb and SO easy at the same time. 1. Iverson 2. Pierce 3. Francis 4. Brand 5. Marbury Iverson and Pierce are better, that's obvious. Brand is a fine PF, but his production hasn't ever led to a winning season, and those Clipper teams have had talent but are leaderless that's why they always lose. Marbury has been on teams with more talent EVERY season he's been in the league, and he loses badly almost EVERY season, while Francis only has losing seasons when he's hurt or a rookie. Take last year's Phoenix team, the only advantage the Rockets had against them was Yao, besides Francis of course, and they were miserable. Even the teams he was on in New Jersey were better in terms of talent but they were pathetic as well, while Francis with less talent won more in a much tougher conference. That isn't even close, forget stats when discussing Marbury, he'll ALWAYS have good stats because he cares about looking good FIRST, but in the end his teams always underpreform.
That was my point on Iverson that the thread starter chose to ignore. Iverson was hands down the best player on this list, TWO YEARS AGO. Age and injuries are going to catch up to him real soon. I really don't understand why people think Paul Pierce is so much better than Francis. There is really no argument you can make. They had one good run in the playoffs in the East. Other than that, his stats aren't overwhelming, his team is mediocre, including Walker's last year there. Its just a myth. That's what trips me out when everyone says he's such a great shooter. He shoots virtually the same percentage as Francis, and the same people will rag on Francis's shooting. What are you guys looking at.
Iverson will get healthy and he'll be pretty close to the level he was once at, plus I think he's moving back to PG next season, wouldn't surprise me if he puts up 25 and 8 next season. Pierce is a better defender, a better 4th quarter preformer, and he's better at taking over a game when his team needs him, Francis sometimes struggles to do that.
