How do you rate Nash on the all-time list of PG's?

I actually had a argument the other day was Nash as good as Stockton. Everyone voted for Stockton do to the fact that the only significant players Stockton had was Karl Malone, Jeff Hornancek. Also all the point guards mentioned Majic, Stockton, Zeke, Kidd, had a terrible case of wantwos meaning Zeke playing on one leg, Majic blood sweat in tears against Bird, sorry no Kidd example. Payton was amazing in his prime with defense and the alley oops to Kemp.

 

Right after
Magic
Kidd
Stockton
Payton
and ofcourse
Rafer Alston

 

This is what I hate about elevating Nash to the elite status. With Dallas he was a good PG. With the early Suns, he was just another PG (albeit, behind some damn good ones). So now all of a sudden he's become an elite PG of all-time near the end of his career? If this isn't an example of the offense magnifying an already good PG's talents, I'm not sure what is. Do me a favor, take his Phoenix numbers and put them at the start of his career and let his Dallas years be his last - would you still consider him among the greats? I know I wouldn't. It's taken the benefit of being on some high-powered offenses for him to shine.

Magic - please. Not even close. If I had to choose one to start my team, I'd have a tough time between Jordan and Magic, but Magic vs. Nash is a no-brainer. Magic easily. Magic could've been an All-Star at 5 positions, was unguardable in the post by most PG's (you'd have to throw an SF on him most of the time), was the walking definition of "passer", and could easily score as well or better than Nash. Magic was basically Jason Kidd on 'roids. While Magic benefited from being on high-powered offenses, you knew this guy was one of the all-time greats in the way he commanded the offense, commanded respect, and then threw up 40+ points while playing center for an injured Kareem. LOL. I'm sorry, but that's just crazy. Magic was greatness from the moment he hit an NBA floor - he didn't have to achieve it.

Thomas - Thomas was a notch below Magic offensively, creatively, and in general basketball ability with the exception of being a better defender than Magic. I honestly think if you look at the Nash of the past couple of years, offensively these 2 guys are very similar. But that's the problem - Thomas was more capable on defense than Nash.

Stockton - I think Stockton gave up on his scoring to be a better passer. Defensively Stockton was better. As a passer, it may be a wash between the two. Nash is flashier, but in the end both could get the ball to the people they needed. If Stockton had been a more selfish player, I think he would've been a less-flashy Nash on offense. Stockton did this for a career, not just for a few years. It's still close if all you do is compare current-day Nash with Stockton, but over a career? Not close. Stockton.

Kidd - Some of you are forgetting what Kidd was like in his prime. I've never seen anyone pass the ball better while running at full speed than Kidd with the exception of Magic. He was a far better defender than Nash. He was a better rebounder than Nash. Kidd could make a slow team fast just by being on the court. There was a reason early in his career he was being touted as the best passing PG since Magic. He was damn good. He's abysmal at shooting and that's always been his Achilles' heel. Keep in mind also, that Kidd has done what he's done in terms of passing while being on teams that were nowhere near the offensive juggernauts that Nash has had in his career. All this being said, I think it's a flip of a coin here. I'd take either Kidd or Nash.

Payton - Probably will be one of the most underrated PG's in history or at least in "my era". Name one PG in the last 20 years that was as good defensively and offensively as Payton. I can't think of any. Payton could've been a 25-28ppg scorer in his prime, but he was too busy jawing with Jordan and locking PG's down on defense. This dude could make Kenny Smith wet his pants ... no Kenny, you can't call in sick just because Seattle is coming to town. He could back you down on offense, hit a jumper when needed, deny you the ball on defense, and just talk you into submission. I honestly think I'd take Payton over Kidd if it the next pick was mine. I'd even go so far as to say Payton should be ranked as high as Stockton except for one thing - he wasn't the leader that Isiah, Magic, or Stockton were.

Robertson - I never saw the Big O play, but something tells me he should be ranked among the elite. I can't comment, though, and I can't say based upon numbers alone because unlike Wilt or Russell, I really have never seen this guy play except for 1 or 2 clips.

What Nash has done the past couple of years has indeed been great. He indeed does deserve his MVP's, but to rank the greatest of all time in terms of a career? No way. Not even close. That is Magic's title for the moment and it's not close. To rank him among the greats? If you look at the past couple of seasons, you could. But over the course of his career? No.

My rankings :

1) Magic
2) Isiah
3) Stockton
4) Payton
5) Kidd/Nash

(with a nod to Oscar Robertson as possibly being 1) or 2) but I can't say based upon what I've seen)

 

There's alot of competition at point guard than most seem think on this thread...and Nash has been great with Suns, but I think he's in the lower half of the top 10. Even for all the great numbers he has put up...he is only 20th all time in assists per game, never lead team to title or NBA finals, or even been great for long period of time.

He's nowhere on the level of Magic or Stockton...both were legends from beginning to end. Nash really hasn't had the same career those two have, look at numbers and the winning. He has only averaged over 10 assist 3 NBA seasons and his best numbers are about average for Stockton and Magic.
Magic was probably a better scorer and rebounder, while Stockton was a better defender.
What about big O, if he is considered a point guard I would even take him over Nash.

Elite
----------------------
1)Magic
2) Stockton
3) maybe big O or Cousy

Next, you would have the likes of Bob Cousy, Isiah Thomas, Nate Archibald
Cousy could make a case for being Number 1, becaue of titles and his part Celtics dynasty...don't think they would've been as great with lesser point guard.

4) Cousy
5) Nate Archibald (34 ppg and 11 ast as seasonal average...that's insane)
6) Isiah thomas


I would put Nash in the same category as players, like Payton, Kidd, Hardaway, and Johnson....all were great players, but I wouldn't put any top 40 or 50 of all time. Why...Nash has great numbers, but if you compare to them Kevin Johnson, K.J. was clearly a better players, while both of their teams were about the same K.J.'s Suns in 80s and 90s where a perennial playoff team and even had years where they were the best team in conference or 60 win team...from 88 - 95, The Suns over 50 games every year. K.J. even had a year where he was 20 ppg 12 ast a game didn't make all star or was even considered for the MVP. Payton did same from 92 -98, although he was more of scorer and little less on passing, more defense...his teams did same. I think Nash will fall into this category even with two MVPs the numbers will say that he is about this class of players.

7) Kevin Johnson
8) Gary Payton
9) Steve Nash and Jason Kidd (tie)
11) Tim Hardaway
12) Mark Price

 

Pretty good list, the best I've seen. I'd break the tie, because Kidd has had a clearly better career than Nash. And after Nash, I'd put Pete Maravich ahead of Tim Hardaway and Mark Price.

 

you guys putting nash in front of thomas and stockton are out of your minds. nash has had an incredible run in phoenix, but he hasn't done it long enough to say he's better than those two.

zeke has two rings as the best player on his team competing against magic's lakers and stockton went to the finals twice only to lose to jordan.

 

There it is. Its too bad that titles or finals appearances or even postseason success need to be deciding factors, cuz that affects many great players who have never made it there. But its just the high standard thats been set and its gotta get figured into the equation. That leaves Nash out of the top 5, ouch.

All things considered, my ranking would be
- Magic
- Stockton
- Kidd
- Isaiah
- Payton
- Iverson (I still consider him a point guard)

 

I like that KJ has finally been added to the list. The craziest part? Kidd, Nash, KJ, all played on the same team...

 

1. Majic Johnson

2. Stockton

3. J. Kidd

4. Nash

5. Pistol Pete

6. G. Payton

7. T. Hardaway

8. M. Jackson

9. R. Strickland

10. K. Johnson
____________________________

Honorable mention:

Calvin Murphy, M. Price, K. Anderson

 

Correction:

1. Majic Johnson, Isaiah Thomas

2. Stockton

3. J. Kidd

4. Nash

5. Pistol Pete

6. G. Payton

7. T. Hardaway

8. M. Jackson

9. R. Strickland

10. K. Johnson
____________________________

Honorable mention:

Calvin Murphy, M. Price, K. Anderson

 

Pete Maravich was more of shooting guard, he is more in class with MJ, Kobe, West, and Drexler. Same as Iverson, I think Iverson was more of shooting guard, because he only played PG like one or two years...most of the time pg duties were handled by Eric Snow.

Maravich had the skills to be optimal facilitator, but he was more scoring type, plus his natural position was SG and he played SG. I have him at number 5 or 6 sg behind MJ, Kobe, West and Iverson

I'm thinking this is pure pgs, not just combo guards, slash fowards, or whatever.

 

that is just a terrible list.


For my list I would put nash just outside the top 10 prolly, maybe #10

 

i dont know if nash breaks the top 10, to be honest. He's "hot" now so i think people will overrank him. He's dang good, but all time? I dont think he sniffs top 10

 

these lists don't give much respect to the players of history. how the heck does tim hardaway end up ahead of mo cheeks? how does rod strickland end up ahead of walt frazier? how does pistol pete get ahead of bob cousy? it's because you guys have no freaking idea who they were.

 

I totally forgot about Cheeks and Frazier. I would like to push Frazier into the list...Frazier probably should be at #9 or #10, but I know some on this board would think I was insane, if I took Cheeks over Nash or Kidd. They will say his number are not quite as good as those two...but Cheeks was a champion and did have some pretty good years.

 

I already said that Nash was a more dangerous offensive player than Kidd because of his scoring abilities. So, yes, he has better results. But that doesn't mean he's a better passer. Centers like Yao and Hakeem create a lot of open space for his teammates. Does that mean they are better passers? No. Their passes are mostly simple kick out passes out of double team. It cannot compare to what PGs do.

Being a good passer means two things: court vision and accuracy in where and when to pass. This is just an opinion. But I do think that Kidd, Magic, and Stockton all have freakish court vision and incredible accuracy. Nash is great too but not on the same level.

 

Nash is in the top 10 and he is going to the Hall of Fame
Kidd is a better all-around than Nash, Kidd is 3rd of all-time in triple doubles

 

Tracy McGrady is the greatest point forward of all time...

 

You guys do know that when teams play Phoenix, their offensive philosophy is "give the ball to whoever Nash is guarding and let them go to work" right? i mean, his complete lack of defense is a HUGE defienciecy, isn't it? Am I crazy?

Nash is, at best, on par with Mark Price or KJ. A PG that averages 17 points, 11 assists, and less than 1 steal a game for his absoulute best 3 years in the NBA in an extremely uptempo offense built entirely around his talents and doesn't even make it to a Conference finals game 7 is not in the top 10 all time, IMO.

 

Magic cannot shoot? He shot 52% from the field and 85% from the line in his career.