I'm not seeing many responses from folks on the left. The "conservative" definitions, which I don't think trans-activists would be happy with it, might be like the following: man: an adult human being who is considered "biologically male" according to an assortment of immutable male sexual characteristics woman: an adult human being who is consider "biologically female" according to an assortment of immutable female sexual characteristics trans-man: a woman who has an involuntary urge to present as a man and have others treat them as a man trans-woman: a man who has an involuntary urge to present as a woman and have others treat them as a woman I struggle to come up with a definition for man/woman/trans-man/trans-woman that might be acceptable to a trans-activist and is not circular or hopelessly convoluted. Obviously, a definition like "a woman is a person who identifies as a woman" is not so helpful. Does anyone want to take a stab at it?
Why just not use the APA definition? Answers to your questions about transgender people, gender identity, and gender expression (apa.org) Defining transgender terms (apa.org)
You may be, I don't know. By "on the left", for this topic, what I really meant someone who strongly advocates for trans rights and normalization and insists that "man" and "woman" should be understood in terms of gender identity, first and foremost, rather than biological traits.
Thanks for the links. I've seen them before. But I still don't think they answer my question. First, they don't address what it means to be a "man" or a "woman". They define gender identity as "a strong sense of being male, female, or something else". OK, so a person might define a man as someone who has a strong sense of being male, and a woman as someone who has a strong sense of being female. But what does "strong sense of being male" mean here? Clearly a trans-man who is not deluded recognizes that they do not have male body parts -- and yet they have a sense of "being male"? Male in what sense -- like spiritually? That's where I get confused.
I think ultimately, it's a person's experience, which is real and subjective. And sometimes it's impossible to define objectively. You may get a close proximity to it objectively, but you can't exactly define experiences. But what do I know - I'm not a trans-anything . Probably best to sit down with someone that is trans and ask them.
I don't know any trans people personally, so I guess I'm out of luck. These aren't the type of questions I'd want to get into, in person, with someone I don't know really well. Alright, here is my attempt at a gender identity-centric definition of man and woman: A man is someone who has an involuntary urge to present as and be treated as if they are "biologically male", regardless of whether they are biologically male. A woman is someone who has an involuntary urge to present as and be treated as if they were a "biological female", regardless of whether they are biologically female. A trans-man is a man who is not biologically male. A trans-woman is a woman who is not biologically female. Perhaps this is conflating gender identity with gender expression. I suppose it's possible for a "man" to not care all that much whether others see them as a man or not?
I'm not sure why it matters? Live and let live. The only area where it genuinely matters is in higher sports ...and even then, the topic is pretty much only edge cases. Further, many folks who have no pony in the race feel like they need to weigh in. So why do you care? Is it that important that you need to label other people? How does it impact you? Serious questions, not rhetorical.
Well you already started a similar thread on gender. https://bbs.clutchfans.net/threads/gender-debate-and-scientific-claims.315629/ I bet HR can answer your question, but whether you like it is a different matter.
The politicization of language is socially divisive, and that affects me. I care that people should be a bit more understanding of why others may choose to use these common words in different ways, and not immediately leap to the conclusion that it indicates some moral or intellectual failing on their part. My goal with this thread isn't to uncover some objectively correct definition for these words -- I don't think that exists.
I could have and perhaps should have bumped that thread. I forgot how closely related it was to the question I was asking in the OP.
I see your post in that thread, which I'll include here: This is kind of circling around the question I was asking. The words "man" and "woman" exist in the English dictionary. How would you define them? Are any of the proposed definitions listed in this thread (including the ones I suggested in two separate comments) close to the mark?
Asking the question is typically a setup to discuss genitalia and have a gotcha moment so that’s why people on the left don’t answer the question. We aren’t stupid. I’m a man but if I was castrated out of some medieval cruelty like Theon Greyjoy did I cease to become a man?? So if it’s not my choice do I then get to keep my man card?? John Bobbitt is now a woman?? Does John Bobbitt get a say so in answering that question but a trans woman or man does not?? Gender is both uncomplicated and complicated. Answering the question with definitives revolving around c$cks and pu$$ys is only simple for the simple minded. Like most questions in life though it usually just comes down to one notion…. Just don’t be a dick.
I generally don't....the American Indian's had 6 types of people they recognized. I haven't a clue.... DD
To me, it’s problematic when there is a cultural shift that insist people redefine how terms should be used while simultaneously not providing a clear, understandable new definition of what the terms now means. If a “man” is simply “a person who asks that you label them as a man”, which seems to be the direction we’re heading, is the word not simply an empty label at that point? I think words should have a substantive meaning to be useful for communication.
If you want a clear definition then explain it yourself… and then wait for someone to say “well what if…” What I think is strange is the people who are obsessed with the topic and so demanding that this urgent matter get resolved today. Not saying that’s you but there are plenty like those nuts on the school boards who are acting as though the world will implode if we dont immediately mandate an 11th commandment on Moses’ tablets that say “thow shall define a man as X”… when in real time people are struggling right now and just need someone in their lives to show a bit of empathy while they figure out life. If they want to switch sexes their parents, friends, etc. should be there to listen and help them make a decision for themselves. When society speaks to groups like this in judgmental outcast ways it causes more pain then necessary. So my recommendation would be to just approach the topic with empathy and say that we don’t have to figure it out right this second.
