I have a disdain for Christianity as an organized religion and for Capitalism as an economic system (though I do believe Jesus was divine, I just don't believe in the churches that have sprung up because of that fact). That said, I get your abortion example about the greater good and the insignificance of intentions as long as there are positive outcomes...and I agree with you. I am aware of the benefits of Capitalism and have spent a lot of time defending it as an economic system. However, I personally believe we have to constantly strive to improve it and to change it and it frustrates me when I see people refusing to do that. True, greater gouvernment control is a concern and it could turn people off the alternatives...but when I see the ACTIVE push to entrench unregulated capitalism among some members of the conservative right, it just makes me shudder at the hypocrisy of embracing this philosophy. I think people can reconcile their views if they're aware that capitalism is wrong...but so much of the religious right is now pushing for less regulation and pushing more and more into capitalism and from what I've seen and heard, I don't think this point is being grasped. Many members of the right are now spending their energy on justifying capitalism when it is probably best spent looking for ways to change it. you wrote well. and I actually think we agree with each other on most points. that said, I hope this thread is still here in the morning.
Absolutely. The point being made is that rich people have a tendency to put their material wealth before God and become lovers of money, ignoring God's will and his commands. There were plenty of people in the Bible that were wealthy that were loved by God. King David, Solomon, heck even Job was given material wealth after his trials. Being rich wasn't the sin, but being rich often accompanies or is the result of other sins.
There are many instances in the Bible where Jesus speaks of giving alms. This is voluntary. Never do I recall reading in the Bible... Thou shalt give half of your wealth to government so that they can create administrative jobs and give whatever is left to the poor. Jesus was not a big fan of government. He was executed (via crucifixion) by the government. In the mind of the Roman government, Jesus was the first seditionist. I am not certain why people now wish to ignore all of that and assume that Jesus thought a powerful, monolithic government is the bee's knees.
Well spoken, though a approximately a century of modern life shows that the welfare state as practiced in Western Europe, Canada and Australia, and the US poorly in fits and starts, has helped the poor and lower middle class much more than vague or even Christian appeals to charity. The welfare state is seen as some as a form of socialism. The public health statistics of the upper 20% in Sweden are virtually identically good to those of the lowest 20%. In the US health statistics of the top 20% are good, like Sweden's while the lowest 20% are like developing countries. This despite much Christian church going in the US. This is probably why the Pope is against the type of capitalism we have in the US.
Except that most studies list sweden above the US in terms of quality of life. http://hdr.undp.org/en/mediacentre/news/title,15493,en.html When you throw out statements with no facts it makes your argument weak.
My understanding of Christianity (or any religion) is limited at best. I am not a scholar of any religious text and I don't pretend to be capable of arguing a point one way or the other. But, given what I do know about the most basic tenets of Christianity, it kind of blows my mind that so many Christians are ready with Biblical arguments supporting violence, vengeance, judgement and every-man-for-himself style greed. I'd always thought Jesus was about peace, forgiveness, understanding and charity -- which would make him not only a liberal but a bleeding heart liberal of the sissiest variety (according to clearly fake Christians like Traitor George). But again, I'm really not prepared to have this sort of discussion. Max gets my proxy in threads like these.
You can donate to charity through private organizations, which I do. These organizations are much more efficient than giving money to the federal government. You can support charity without supporting big government. So your argument falls. The fact that I'm very wealthy does not detract from my religion -- I'm just very smart.
I was following you until you got to this bit. How are we supposed to trust anything you say when you post something every person on the board knows to be patently false?
The problem with capitalism is the greedy men who take a death star approach to things. As long as they get what they want, nothing else matters to them, even if it means sacrificing human life. I don't think anyone in particular hates capitalism. Have you guys ever enjoyed coca cola in another part of the world? It's delicious! Coca cola tastes 1000Xs better on foreign soil than here in the U.S. But it doesn't even have to be about giving your money away. How about just loving your fellow neighbors? What's the point of dropping MRE meals after bombing an entire village I also think that the christian capitalists should open their minds a little. They would realize that we, the christian commies, also like jesus... a lot. To answer the original question on how are there so many christian capitalists.... It's simple. Priorities are all screwed up. For example, Instead of talking to Obama on stepping up the effort on hunger, the vatican has made abortion and stem cells their first priority in the first meeting with Obama. =/
I don't recall one bible verse in this whole thread, unless I missed it, which seems strange considering the subject. Not surprising, since most on this board shun any sort of belief in God or Jesus. Personally, I don't believe the Pope is "of God", as Catholics believe St. Peter being the first Pope. Anything out of his mouth is not necessarily truth as far as I'm concerned. I don't recall Jesus putting much value on individual wealth, and certainly no restrictions to what you attain for yourself. He does mention that it is hard for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of heaven, meaning that such a person is likely to live for himself. There are further instances that show that being a free-loader is not proper either. http://www.freemoneyfinance.com/2006/06/the_bible_work_.html The Bible: Work or Don't Eat One thing I love about the Bible is that it takes a hard stand on people who try to just "get by" and feed off others without doing a lick of work themselves. Here's my favorite verse on this topic: For even when we were with you, we gave you this rule: "If a man will not work, he shall not eat." 2 Thessalonians 3:10 Yep, don't work, don't eat. I think that says it all. Notice that it doesn't say that those who CAN NOT work should not eat. No, we should have compassion on and help out those people. But if someone can work, yet WILL NOT work, then he's left to the consequences of his actions (or inactions in this case). Here are a couple other verses on this same line of thinking: Lazy hands make a man poor, but diligent hands bring wealth. Proverbs 10:4 How long will you lie there, you sluggard? When will you get up from your sleep? A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest -- and poverty will come on you like a bandit and scarcity like an armed man. Proverbs 6:9-11 So get out there and work! Or find a way to survive without eating. ;-)
As I said before, he was definitely for mankind helping one another out and avoiding violence. There is no need to have any of this mandated by the government, though. I agree that much of what happens in "God's name" is patently against what Jesus would want (such as violence, wars, etc.). I just don't think that Jesus would care what type of economy a particular country has as long as those who follow him do what they can to help their fellow man.
A few thoughts that popped into my head.. - Jesus PBUH was not against government. After all, someone has to govern. He was against unjust government and I think in particular, unjust dictators. - Also, in a democracy, I believe the premise is that it's self-governed. Meaning the choice is completely in the hands of the people and is a part of the people. As in, the president doesn't sit above the law. The people are electing people amongst themselves to take a step up in the shared responsibility to govern themselves. - An ironic thought. No one has bothered to mention that wealth and charity are not always money. Muslims are required by God to give roughly 2.5% of disposable income to charity every year (beginning with people closest to you). Anything on top of that is a bonus and can include a smile, helping an old woman, lending people stuff, etc.. Simple, easy, I like it. Common Islamic story: Its baffling how we act like true happiness can be attained by consumption.. Our initial instinct when starving for happiness is to consume now. Jesus PBUH preached that real happiness could be attained through sacrifice. He only had 3 earthly possesions: a cup, a comb and his robe. He gave the cup and the comb away to charity. Great topic btw... I do think that capitalism with a heavy dose of socialism is the most ethical way to go. I like how corporate social responsibility is getting rewarded these days, although a lot of people do it just for the money. Still, it opens up a window for those who want to have a decent income while helping people.
I got to laugh at this. I guess TJ may be well paid this week. Hopefully his boss doesn't replace him with Trader Ramesh--kudos to Sam Fisher who said something similar a few years ago.
It is complete hipocrisy to drop MRE's after bombing a village based on the needs of US corporations or cynical domestic policy goals based on appeasing militaristic yahoos. The present Pope is a foe of liberation theology and finds it easier to focus on stem cells and abortion rather than social justice.
So...from this I see that you: 1. Believe that the supporters of the GOP are uneducated, 2. Believe that people will sell out their beliefs for a government hand-out, and 3. Believe that in order to have justice in society, there must be government hand-outs for all. glynch, you and I have gone many rounds on this BBS, and I always had respect for your opinion until this point where I see the truth. You are a warped human being.
