This is truly amazing a 4 page thread WHat is the record?? ------------------ Dont do today what you can put of until tomorrow
Several people mentioned Bo Outlaw as part of a deal with Orlando. Isn't he a free agent? According to Patricia Bender <http://www.dfw.net/~patricia/contracts>, Orlando only has the following under contract as of 8/1: Michael Doleac 4 yr/$6,072,816 exp. 2002 Pat Garrity 4 yr/$4,428,091 exp. 2002 Matt Harpring 4 yr/$5,399,561 exp. 2002 Darrell Armstrong 5 yr/$18 mill. exp. 2003 Corey Maggette 4 yr/$6,131,524 exp. 2003 Derek Strong 5 yr/$17 mill. exp. 2003 The Magic might move one of these guys to free up cap space, but the pickings are slim to the Rockets. So it seems to me our chances of picking up their #3 depend on how desperately they want to pursue Duncan and Hill. They might be willing to deal the #3 for a future first rounder to a team able to absorb the cap space reserved for the pick. I assume out exception can be used for that. So they would make a deal only if they expect they can sign Duncan, which is not a given. I'd be surprised to see a Rockets-Magic deal or a Rockets-Clippers deal. Why? No one wants to play for the Clippers, so the only way they can get anyone is to draft them and have their rights guaranteed for three years. Chicago won't trade theirs, so unless Vancouver takes leave of its senses, we will not be picking in the top 4. The good news is, with Mihm, Swift and Stevenson in it, the draft is considerably deeper than it was a week ago. ------------------ If you don't remember the ABA, you don't know basketball. [This message has been edited by ricealum (edited May 15, 2000).]
So here it goes, the numbers sort of work out (?!) and I'm not sure if I would do it--it seems the other teams really benefit. Let's assume Duncan's on his way out, and he wants to end up close to home, so Orlando looks to be at the top of his list. Orlando, if they get Duncan, then won't need a pick in the top three, but would love to keep those picks nearer the middle. Orlando also needs to prepare for a Duncan trade and wants to unload some of its obligations. Vancouver is looking for a top three pick, 1 or 2 IMO for KM or Swift. So, if there are no major surprises and Orlando gets 1 or 2 in the lottery, Vancouver doesn't, Houston doesn't: 1) Houston gives Orlando its #9 and releases Orlando from its 1st round obligation in the next (3?) 4 years 2) Houston gives Cato and Drew to Orlando 3) Houston gives Walt Williams to Vancouver 4) Orlando gives Vancouver its top pick for Vancouver's (4 or 5) 5) Vancouver releases Orlando from its 1st round obligation 6) Orlando gives Houston Doleac 7) Vancouver gives Houston Shareef Abdur-Rahim 8) Orlando follows with a trade (same one?) with San Antonio giving SA Cato and Drew, SA gives Orlando Duncan (this way Duncan doesn't end up in the same division as the Spurs). Orlando also gives San Antonio Vancouver's old pick, and maybe SA gives 'em something else besides TD So the Rox end up with Shareef and Doleac, Orlando gets Duncan, Vancouver gets Kenyon Martin or Swift and San Antonio gets Cato, Drew and a top pick like Fizer. But wait, the Rockets are going to get the #1 so it doesn't matter, does it? ------------------ screw Bud Adams
Davo 1. Mobes is valuable to us only if he signs with us (or a sign and trade). We can then trade him later or keep him for what ever role RT needs him. (I know he was erratic. Undiscilplined at times. But, personally I like the spark off the bench.) 2. Mobes has some hopes of making it to the big numbers this year. He will get them somewhere whether we want to give it to him or not. So, offer him the three or four year deal at $3-4Million for the first year and weigh it forward at $4 Million/year thereafter. What is the downside? 3. No way are RT and CD talking a one year deal to Mobes. There is no advantage to do so. BornRocketRed 1. Shareef would be harder to wrest away from Vancover than Odom from the LaLaLandClippers. IMHO anyway. 2. Shareef A-R for Walt, our pick, Drew, Cato, etc.... I would jump for joy over, but I do not see that happening. 3. I do agree that Shareef would like to play here. 4. He would be a key to us progressing without a doubt. But, any trade of someone of his stature (talent-wise) would most likely include Big Country's hefty contract also. So, it would cost us Cato, Drew, Walt, Mobes (sign and trade) and a pick for SAR and Bryant Reeves. If they threw in a swap of picks, I would swallow it. 5. Just as an aside. But, looking at the Duncan/SA, Doleac/Orlando, etc... proposal. Why wouldn't San Antonio deal directly with Vancover and sign and trade Duncan to Vancover who will send him to Orlando for the players and picks mentioned? Or some combo that cuts Houston out altogether? Whe it comes to a deal like this(proposal), Houston is sucking the hind tit. The center peices to the deal are: Star Talent: .... Vancover (S A-R) & San Antonio (Duncan) Low Picks: ....... Vancover & Orlando Cap Space: ....... Vancover (little) & Orlando (lots) & Houston (None) Key high Picks: Vancover & Orlando 6. I just see a whole lot of work to sell anything like this, although I agree with my sources that something is happening between the three teams, just not on anything as diverse, complex or advantageous to Houston as postulated. Cheers.
what the hell does vancouver get out of this trade? ------------------ "We need to fockass".....Dream back in the day
Vancouver would do it if the pick they get is a top 2, but I agree with Popeye it is a bit strung out. But all I wanted to do really was to start thinking about it, trying to tie all these teams together somehow if they rumors are true. ------------------ screw Bud Adams
The Sonics can offer(match)him around $4.0M and a lot of other teams can bump up that figure, and go beyond it, including the Rockets(in a trade). Popeye, How does a trade enable the Rockets pay Rashard more than Seattle can offer? The only way we could get Rashard in a trade would be in a sign and trade deal with Seattle. Since Seattle couldn't sign him for more than Early Bird money ($4M), I don't see how we could acquire him at a higher salary. ------------------
First off, let my say how much I admire Popeye for continuing to post all trade talk in one thread. This makes it very easy for us other posters to keep track of an ongoing popular topic. Personally, I think the board could use a little bit more conservation of threads by continuing to re-use the most useful threads like this. Given my knack for sarcasm, I probably should say I mean no sarcasm here. I hope people continue to use this insightful thread. My penchant for using good threads for ongoing discussion is probably from my nature to keep my desktop all in nice, tidy folders. again...thx Popeye! I am in agreement with Aelliott. How does a trade for Lewis for more than Seattle can pay work, exactly? I would seriously question your sources on that one!! It is my understanding that free agents cannot be traded right away. So, for instance, Chi buying Lewis on open market then trading to Houston, cannot happen for something like 90 days. Plus, a sign-n-trades cannot be for more than Seattle can pay. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 17, 2000).]
aelliott: The report here was that Rashard Lewis wants out of Seattle MORE than previousily noted or reported. I speculated that some teams could pay him more than Seattle was able. ($3.8Million max) The report here particularily highlighted his interest in Houston MORE than previously noted or reported. I speculated that we could go "beyond the max" to affect that through a trade. Can we not use a portion of our exemption and a trade to acquire Rashard Lewis? Can't Seattle sign him for $3.8M for a single year, then include him in a trade him to us? Isn't this the same as our situation with Mobley? The options as I see it: 1. Seattle offers $3.8 Million as Maximum. Lewis accepts. 2. Seattle offers $3.8 Million as Maximum. Lewis refuses. Uncompensated, Seattle loses Lewis to Free Agency. 3. Seattle offers a sign and trade deal for the greatest benefit. A single year $ 3.8 Million to Houston. Houston then agrees to major escalation next year. Seattle ends up with a atrade defecit exemption for next year. Seattle: Lewis 3.8M Trade Defecit -2.8M Houston: Drew $1.0M Exemption $2.8M I keep thinking of this trade exemption as a useable, almost tradeable, but definitely a transferable coupon-type of commodity. Heypartner Sources,had no input into the line: "The Sonics can offer(match)him around $4.0M and a lot of other teams can bump up that figure, and go beyond it, including the Rockets(in a trade)." That's my speculation. Any team can sign and trade it's own free agent.It is the hallowed ground that makes the sign and trade so attractive to all parties. You guys are the hero-capoligists,so correct me if I am wrong LOL!!! [This message has been edited by popeye (edited May 17, 2000).]
popeye, Here's what heypartner and myself were questioning: You said: The Sonics can offer(match)him around $4.0M and a lot of other teams can bump up that figure, and go beyond it, including the Rockets(in a trade). That implies that in a trade, the Rockets could pay Lewis more than Seattle could. Since (as heyparnter pointed out) Seattle is the only team that can sign and trade Lewis, then Houston would have to acquire Lewis in a trade from Seattle. In order to do a sign and trade, Seattle would first have to sign Lewis to a deal before trading him. Since, Seattle can't pay him more than $4M Early Bird money, then the largest contract that Lewis could sign for in a sign and trade would be $4M (which is the max that Seattle can sign him for). I don't see any way for Lewis to make more than $4M if he's traded. We can use a trade exception in acquiring Lewis, but that just means that we'd give less back to Seattle. It wouldn't affect Lewis' contract at all. ------------------ [This message has been edited by aelliott (edited May 17, 2000).]
Ah. Okay. Mmmmmmmm. That whole sentence is clumsy,isn't it? Sorry. I was trying to say a couple of nthings and I ended up saying neither. I was attempting (and obviously very poorly), to say that others could offer Lewis more, but that Houston could go beyond what the others could do. The Rockets could make a better offer in that they could use the exemption to give Seattle an advantage they would not have with other teams. That if Rashard was indeed leaving Seattle and looking seriously at other teams including Houston, we could maybe make it more palatable for Seattle to make a trade. Initially: "....The Sonics can offer(match)him around $4.0M and a lot of other teams can bump up that figure, and go beyond it, including the Rockets(in a trade)." Maybe it should have said: "... The Sonics can offer(match)him around $4.0M and a lot of other teams can bump up that figure, but the Rockets can go beyond that by using the exemption(in a trade)...." I think this is one of the many ways that CD is discovering this exemption thing. You can consider a trade where Bryce Drew and/or Walt Williams can net you a player worth almost double their salary value. In essence, $4.5M + $1.1M = $10.6 Million in trade value.
Capologist: Question here- Could we pull this off: Houston wants Lewis, who wants 6 million a year. So, Lewis leaves Seattle, signs with Orlando and is traded to Houston (sign and trade from Orlando) for the exception, plus Drew, plus scrub? ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
Thanks Popeye for the updated info, which is encouraging, and aelliot on clarifying the issues of sign and trade rules and the CBA player salary issues which affect this potential transaction with Lewis. Actually, even though it was confusing, as aelliot pointed out, I followed what you meant, Popeye. But I don't understand the math of your last post. How does 4.5 and 1.1 equal 10.6 in trade value? Did you mean 5.6? ------------------ the more I know, the more I know I don't know...
Popeye, et al. One other caveat is Early Bird contracts must be signed for a minimum of two years. The largest one year exception available for Lewis or Mobley is the Middle Class (Shandon) exception. NIKE...you didn't read my post above. The CBA is very clear: Under no circumstances may one team sign another teams free agent then trade them. Once you sign a free agent, you cannot trade them for 90 days or Dec 15th, whichever is later.<FONT color="#dedfdf"> [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 17, 2000).]
sorry HP.....wasn't in the mood to decipher some capology gibberish. ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
I just wanted to say I love this thread and 200 here we come ------------------ CUT Tino Isn't it amazing how quickly everyone did a Cat Backflip!!!!!
Ummmmm.....forgive me if I rub off as ignorant here but....is Rashard Lewis really worth all this cash? ------------------
League Player Updates I am not one to have several threads going at once and I had some things I wanted to bring to the table, but I also know I run the risk of being accused of superficially perpetuating this thread to beat some standing statistical record or something, but, well, I'll just post my stuff and ya'll can take it as intended or not .... Rashard Lewis Well I was one of those that thought it would be impossible for us to even come close to his demands. He was going to be expensive. He would be difficult to acquire. I posted several times, along with some other very astute posters here, that there is no way he would be a Rocket. Period. Unavailable money, unwillingness of Seattle to move him favorably and the fact that he has an apparent aversion to Houston because of the slight (or perceived slight) at his draft, making it a remote possibility at best. Well, some reliable and knowledgeable people tell me recently that it is not only possible for him to be a Rocket afterall, but he is very interested in Houston. The Sonics can offer(match)him around $4.0M and a lot of other teams can bump up that figure, and go beyond it, including the Rockets(in a trade). Key to this change in direction comes from the Texan himself who was a little miffed at Seattle's floundering in the playoffs and folding the tents come crunchtime. Also, the rumors are persisting that Gary Payton is leaving, that Seattle may have a "building year" coming next season. Gary Payton He has had it! The best source I have in New York says that he heard from an "inside guy" (that's as far as he would go) that Jordan was getting very persistent about getting GP to Washington. He stated that some serious discussion took place between the Sonics and the Jordan people. Key here is a trade that the Sonics insist "must" include Vin Baker "in some way." Watch for a mutual shake up of both these teams' rosters. Washington does not have a first round pick and are in deep and sinking fast with a prohibitive salary load.But they do have some talent there, and Jordan has said he would trade any and all if it meant he would inmprove the team in the long run. Tracy McGrady It looks like the Toronto Raptors have asked Vince Carter if he would take an extension to his contract through to 2004, and by doing so will satisfy Tracy's big question about his playing venue. McGrady would like to stay with cousin Vince. He also wants a minimum four year ticket. Vince's is up in 2002. In short, if Vince stays for the extra two years, TMac will sign the four year deal. The Raptors have apparently and smartly decided to build around the duo and have opened their pocket books. Vince will talk to family, including Tracy before deciding. He likes the Canadian lifestyle, likes the team and his teamates. His Mom is a big factor in it and she loves him playing in the smaller venue also. A team source I have known for a long time assured me Vince will extend and therefore Tracy will now stay in Toronto. (Sheepishly, I will admit that this is the same team source that told me TMac was disliked by teammates early in the season, and that he would be traded before Christmas 1999. The fact that he wasn't may say more about the Raptor's patience and Tracy's maturing than anything else. But, you can take it anyway you want. I will go with my source's gut on this one.) This sure makes things interesting for Orlando, Chicago, and Miami .... all who thought they had a better than even chance of imprtessing T Mac with their franchise.Other Toronto News There will be a bit of shake up this summer as the Raptors gear up to play a faster complimentry game to carter and TMac. They need a dynamic point guard. An anchor who distributes well and is also a killer long range. They still need a finesse (athletic?) power forward to compliment the bang-em-up style of Kevin and Charles Oakley. Doug Christie will be gone. Grant Hill His spin move this past week of leaking through a couple of business sources that he would be willing to take exception money($2Million) to play on a "winning attitiude" team caused a bit of a ruckus through the league. Suddenly, teams like the Rockets who have little money but lots of promise became instant contenders to a legitimate game breaker. More than likely it was the opening salvo of a summer long battle of wits between Grant and the Pistons. Grant's opening message: I want a strenghtened team. One with vision. One with more guns than Stack and me. Or I am gone. You better start looking soon, because I am getting impatient.(Not quotes.) Eddie Jones The more and more I hear about all these other FA players coming and going. The more I think Eddie is going to the Bulls. TMac may be gone. Hill will not even consider Chicago. Derek Anderson may be worked out and looked at in Chicago. But when it comes right down to it, I keep seeing Krause signing a check as big as Dallas to get Eddie in a Bull iniform. IMHO he will never play in Charlotte blue again. The only exception would be the wiley Chicago Owner getting Allan Iverson pried out of the Philly Phingers. That may not be as impossible as first thought, as some changes HAVE to be made in Phillyland this summer. Tonic Kukoc A smaller salary after the summer maybe. But he will resurface on the Sixer roster next year. The team gelled with him. He was a major stablizing force in the lockeroom and the floor. His injured body could stand a couple more years ifn he is used sparingly and correctly. Watch for Iverson and a couple of others push the Brass for him to stay.(I still stand by my prediction last summer that Brown will go to the front office and Calipari will take the coach's job. And Calipari's approach to the game may be more suited to Kukoc also.) Tim Hardaway What can you say about this guy. Man he has guts and fire. Unfortunately he left the guts all over the floor this year, as he played one injury into another. And, his fire was lost only because he couldn't literally stand anymore and light up the place. He will be missed, but he will be gone from the Heat. Riley needs to make changes and Tim will be one of them. Man, I hated to see what this year did to him. What a sad season for such a talent.Miami's first pick is way down at 52. Watch for shake ups. Jalen Rose I now seriously doubt the Pacers will ever let this guy escape them. I know they have to contend with signing him, Croshere, Miller, and Jackson as well as finding a replacemnent for Smits who surely will retire ( .... hey, I know, another failed prediction. I said in the summer Smits would retire half way through the season due to reoccurring foot problems and he played very well, probably his best overall season in the last two-three ... but I still say he hangs up his jockstrap) this summer. Jalen has found a very nice niche in this league. Like Kittles, Gill, and others.... he has that mid range price tag and a whole lot of broad expansive talent. The affordables This is kind of a collection of guys in the $2.5M to $4.5M range who can start the odd game, make a bench deep or spare a couple of good effective games to rest an injured or tired superstar. Jahidi White: a complete bench center who works hard every shift. Can still learn and is smart. Kurt Thomas: Never really lived up to his potential of hard defender and multiple scoring threat, but part of the blame has got to rest on Van Gundy's "roster psychosis" shoulders. Does anybody really know their role over there? Does Van Gundy? Todd McCulloch To me, he should have been picked up by Houston in the second round instead of T Washington and V Hamilton. He is in a way the quintessential bench center. Like Pig, but younger and with better overall skills. He is coachable and never a problem child. He is also fearless. He will bang with anyone. I like that in a center. He actually could break some starters lineup with careful tutoring and some experience. Forston I do not know what the probelm is with Pitino and his ilk. You take a fairly intelligent, skillful player and make him useless in a few short years. This guy needs a dose of playtime, a good team and a patient coach. He can produce. He is cheap. (Sounds like an old girlfriend of mine. But Danny's better looking!) Vancover Watch for some major deals out of these guys. They did not hire Chuck Daly as "special consultant" to sit aroundf a play dominoes. Heisley didn't hire Billy Knight from the Pacer's to be the General Manager in name only. Both Chuck and Billy are very dynamic players in the big game,folks. These guys are movers. Priorities include getting rid of Big Country's contract. Getting a legitimate center. Finding help for Shareef or trading him to acquire two or three more peices to the puzzle. Doing something "long-term" with thier pick. It is not surprising that recent talk of Houston swapping picks with Orlando and Vancover, or exchanging between Vancover and Houston have included both Cato's name and Bryant's. I say again. Chuck Daly is a wiley, sly, crafty, intuitive, aggressive, knowledgeable basketball mind. I have known him off and on for several decades. He will make some moves. He will not wait until the opening game of next season to do that either. Watch for some major things in Grizzland. My "Fade-Away Parting-Shot" For the record, I am a huge AlZo fan. One of my all time favorites. I am glad he got the nod for the D Player of the Year. But how they missed giving Kobe a decent spot in recognition of his defensive efforts this year, makes me wonder if some people watch the same games as I do ....... Cheers. [This message has been edited by popeye (edited May 17, 2000).]
