That's true. Practically every time I do the computer generated lottery I come up with someone who is a shocker (it never seems to be the Rockets in that top three spot though). But it does go to show that anything can happen. ------------------
aelliott, heypartner speculated that Cato would still be under his old contract if he was traded in some deal for draft picks and other considerations. I mentioned that the GS - Atlanta and Indiana - Toronto trades of last summer weren't completely done until late summer. If that is so, wouldn't Cato be under his new contract if the deal was finally stamped with NBA approval in August? That would make matching the salary numbers different than if he was "traded" on his old contract. I looked in the Coon FAQ and really didn't find anything on trade execution, effective dates and so forth. My initial post on this was on the first page of this thread. Mango ------------------ The Serious Police are watching Donate Blood
Update Well Vancover sources say they hear that "everyone" is contacting them about the pick. Houston was one of the "everyone". They did not specifically confirm Orlando. Sorry. Not much,eh? I have read all the posts on this thread. Any questions aimed at me have been answered by someone else, or can be answered by re-reading previous posts, including the first. 80+ responses! Man! Cool Runnings to Ya'll. Couple of things,though .... 1. The answer to the question of why would a team trade away a decent first rounder to "merely" obtain freedom from future obligations: The Magic have to have and then giveaway four first rounders over the next four years. This year they have a basketful. Why wait? 2. The answer to the doubtful questions of why Orlando would accept future first rounders or second rounders in some "swap" and in the process lose one or two first rounders this year: The first round picks this year are thin after the fifteenth pick or so(some say after the fifth). Next year is a deep draft and there promises to be some very, very decent picks in the late first to early and mid second rounds. In short, a first rounder this year may not be as valuable as a late first to mid second round next year. 3. Ya'll may be missing some important aspects of actually having a top five pick. DO NOT underestimate the guts of a Rocket decision maker. A top five pick acquired through whatever means, may be the best ingredient to land someone of Duncan's calibre. IMHO someone like San Antonio would eat that up if they knew that they would be losing Duncan, maybe uncompensated. (Plus the fact that they need to build, and re-build real quickly.) There is no reason that the Rockets can't parlay this whole draft into some super advantageous trade deal that will make people shake their heads in wonder. AGAIN! (LOL) 4. After carefully digesting this whole thing over several days, I cannot escape the feeling that the Clippers were approached with some draft swap/trade offer similiar to the ones bandied about here. I still say Odom and O'kandi are being discussed at some level. 5. The phrase that keeps popping up in Rocketland these days is ".... we can do that?". The varied and creative ways of using that $4.5M (actually $4.43M, as someone has noted above somewhere) exemption are being discovered everyday. It has a couple of limitations, but man it basically gives us an opportunity to bid for players with prohibitive salaries, BYC clauses, etc. Or, used in combination for a trade involving a salary like Walt's, a first round draft pick, etc ... . CD loves this exemption! I have more to say, but have had a busy and hectic day. Cheers.
Mango, Here's the way I understand it: - July 1, last years contracts expire and players either become free agents or the next year of their contract kicks in. - Teams can't start signing free agents until 8/1 So, if a player is Cato was traded after July 1, then he's under the first year of his new deal. That stuff I'm pretty sure of. What I'm not sure of is when teams are allowed to start making trades again. Seems like the last few years there has been no predraft trades. It's always been a matter of one team selecting for the other and completing the deal later (Nowitzki/Traylor,Davis/Bender,etc...). That leads me to believe that the trade deadline doesn't end until July 1, but that's pure speculation on my part. ------------------
I'm getting royally confused on this BYC stuff. Let's say for the sake of argument, the deal was a sign and trade of Walt (4.5 mill) for Duncan (9 mill). We'd trade Walt, and our 4.4 which would equal the 9 mill. San Antonio trades Duncan, but because of BYC, can only get 4.5 in return (Walt) That seems to work, right? Could they also receive say Bryce Drew, and bring the total up to around 6 mill, or are they only allowed half? But, for Cato, We trade him, and only can get 2.66 mill in return, plus 4.4, is around 7 mill, we throw in extra stuff, and ours totals to 9 mill. Is San Antonio ONLY allowed to receive half of Duncan's 9 mill salary in return? I thought I read somewhere that BYC players can't be traded for each other, unless 1 team was under the cap, or something to that extent (was discussing a Jones-Iverson sign/trade) So, when you trade a BYC player, as long as the other team can fit their whole salary under the cap, and you get less salary in return, it'll work? ------------------ Rockets fans wanted at hoopsboards.com Draft Chat, NBA Chat, Team Chat, and more!
Tb-Cain -- did he really? Very cool... Lance is great -- guy knows his stuff. You should check out <a href="http://www.houstonsportspage.com">Houston Sports Page</a> if you haven't already. The person I spoke to last night didn't mention names and it really was just speculation, but perhaps they're on to something .... hopefully we can make a very good situation out of this. The Rockets have to come away with some bulk/size... and it's going to come through the draft (if they can get in the top 3 or 4) or a big deal like this I would imagine. ------------------ NOTHING BUT .NET CLUTCHCITY.NET
pard- your enthusiasm for trading Cato is alarming. So, #9 plus a couple of late 1st rounders isn't worth #3. Is Reeves plus #3 worth Cato and #9? Come on. Is there some person in the draft that you think is so awesome, you're happy to lose Cato? Certainly not for me. As a coach, as a GM, it is in the team's best interest to have Cato on the frontline in addition to Martin/Swift. Dude. It would be so awesome. I'm getting all giggly thinking about it. A PF/C combo like that is exactly what the Rockets should have. Okay, you've spent some time shooting down the idea of #20+#20+#9 < #3. Fine. Keep using that imagination and show me a trade where we get real value for Cato. And please, let's leave Duncan dreams out of it for now. I want value for Cato, because there is nobody in the NBA or draft that brings what Cato does to the team in terms of size/athleticism/age. I want a trade that will make up for the incredible disappointment of not having both Cato and Martin/Swift running with the guards, tomahawking alley-oops and swatting shots into the stands. ------------------ [This message has been edited by Nolen (edited May 04, 2000).]
Nolen, I'm not the one to offer up trades like that. If I did, I'd totally lose face in hiccup-ing hypocrasy (isn't that right DaDakota). I really don't even like to do it. My Cato talk is more about preparing myself for what I believe is the inevitable (just like losing MD or Cassell). You are going to have to pay to do some Dreamcasting. Cato is clearly our best trade bait for all the reason you gave. KT might deliver some interest. Forget about Drew, Walt, TMass being deal maker...yeah right. Cuttino--I can't bare to e v en t h ink ab o ut lo..sing. (man, that sentence was hard to type.) So, here's my take: I think the best thing to do is stand pat, eat the $4.5m exception as a salary cap maneuver, and wait for better trade offers during the season. Only boring, humble role-player trades. But if we can really pull a Popeye trade, that ain't happening with out some pain and second-guessing on this board....just like losing MD and OH for a "brat" and Cassell and Horry for a "fat brat". Maybe Pole can pull a Pippen-style trade (a #9 and #20 for a #4), but personally, I'm preparing myself for letting go of Cato, as painful as it may be, either in an expanded version of this Popeye trade, or as part of a later in the summer blockbuster. Many seem to just want to jump on the Popeye tradewagon thinking its a free ride. Who wants to help me pull that tradewagon? no pain no gain. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 04, 2000).]
the reason I'd want to give up Cato is to free up more cap room for next summer to go after Webber or Finley.
Didn't I read/hear somewhere that Cato was planning on staying in Houston this summer and working on his offensive game with CD? I might have heard this on one of the TV broadcasts or read it here. Cato desperately needs this work and in my opinion could improve and really contribute to our future. We don't need him to be a superstar, just good enough to get 4-6 post-up buckets per night in addition to his emotional baseline dunks created by Stevie Franchise. While I would not mind getting rid of Cato and the 4.5 mil exemp. to get a Superstar, I would like to see how Cato progresses this summer under CD's guidance. ------------------ "People think I live a pampered life, but I work hard to keep up my business."
popeye- 80+ posts? Hell yes! This is the most exciting stuff we have to read or think about here! Thank you so much. I love you, man. *sob*
outlaw- that's another thing I don't get- we have Cato's Bird rights, do we not? Is his contract really going to drain our cap that much? Capologists please help me here. heypartner- ah, I gotcha. Your seemed enthusiasm is really psyching yourself for the inevitable loss of Cato. I'm loving the Dreamcast references, by the way, and the popeye on the phone reference was hilarious. I'm with you on staying pat. I'm tired of plugging in new pieces every damn year to make a contender that doesn't contend. I'm tired of replacing half the team. Could we please just keep some people and let them grow together? ------------------
Trade Cato Trade Cato Trade Cato!!! I think that is pretty much the general consensus of the people on this board... I for one don't think that's a very good idea... I'm sure most of you are pissed that the Rockets are stupid to give him such a ludicrous contract for simply playing well in preseason. I'll agree with you, I think that contract is a bit premature, but who knows we could be complementing that very contract in a couple years thinking we made a pretty good deal... That's besides the point though, the Rockets are a rebuilding team, and simply we don't have the tools at this point to win the next championship. Solution? Simple, get a high first round pick at ALL cost. We'll trade Cato, hell we'll even trade the whole roster as long as Francis and the Cat is in Houston. The fact is Kelvin Cato is an effective center. He block shots, he rebounds, and plays good D (remember that win against Lakers, well Cato stuffed Shaq quite a few times). If he plays 30+ min with a clean bill of health, he's a guarenteed 10 pts, 10 rebs, and 3 blks a game. That's pretty decent for a center. Considering the fact that the Rockets were fitting their puzzle one piece at a time last season... first of all, establishing the guards Francis, Mobley, and Anderson... slowly, they got to Walt Williams by the end of season, establishing the offensive scheme. I think that once Cato becomes a full-timer, gets into the offensive scheme, he'll luster as his millions should indicate. Cato will never be a superstar, nor will he likely be a star, but he'll be needed... Sure, we can acquire Olokowandi, but I'm really sure he's going to come to the Rockets at a cheap price tag, and a non-existent personel cost. Cato is not our cornerstone of the rebuilding process, but he is a necessary tool. How many centers can run the court like he can, block shots, and play good D against top-quality players? Not many, and they won't come cheap either. Granted Cato has to do a lot of work to be a truly successful NBA-caliber center, but he has the tools that ANY rebuilding team would love to have. Say we were to obtain the top 3 pick, sometimes, so we can get a sure-thing with Kenyon Martin, or maybe a high-schooler... Then what? We lose the existing core of young players, and we get a guy that could make or break the Rockets. Not all young players develop quite as quickly as our child prodigal Stevie Francis has. We cannot take that for granted. Rasheed Wallace needed to get out of Washington to blossom. Stackhouse didn't become truly effective til he joined the Pistons. There is no guarentee that the young player that we draft will work well for us. Now I'm not recommending that we trade our top 3 pick away if we are lucky enough to attain it through the lottery, but beware that we might be giving away too much if we trade too many of our existing assets that we have. If the Rockets are truly disappointed at the position, trade the picks for a higher pick the year after (in a draft supposedly a bit deeper). I'll tell you this, rebuilding sucks, but we have to be patient, and we can't jump the gun to trade away the existing talent so quickly. Remember, the Rockets would have never won the first championship without the likes of Otis Thorpe, Kenny Smith, and Vernon Maxwell (we were patient enough to take Maxwell off the hands of Spurs to let him flourish). The only moves I would consider is to let Williams (considerably older than the rest, and has value to a contending team) and Drew (doesn't fit in plans anymore) go to move up in draft or to make salary room for the roster). So maybe the Rockets can be sure to re-sign the Cat and maybe pick up Rashard Lewis in the off-season. I'll make this bold prediction, the Rockets will not with the Championship in 2001. However, 2001 is the year where Rockets will shine... Olajuwon's salary will be out of the cap room, and (take a deep breath guys) we'll be under the cap. Not to the ridiculous position the Magics are in, but we could be in line to pick up the remaining pieces of the puzzle to start the next Rockets dynasty. Just my two cents, peace out guys... ------------------ Louisville Rockets my ass
NIKEstrad, We'd trade Walt, and our 4.4 which would equal the 9 mill. San Antonio trades Duncan, but because of BYC, can only get 4.5 in return (Walt) That seems to work, right? Could they also receive say Bryce Drew, and bring the total up to around 6 mill, or are they only allowed half? If the SA is just giving up Duncan, whatever they get back has to be within 15% of Duncan's trade value (assuming SA is over the cap). Since Duncan would be a BYC player his trade value to SA would be $4.5M. So, could get up to $5.1M back for Duncan. Walt makes $3.75M, so if you wanted to include Drew's $1M in that deal it would still be doable. Normally, Duncan's BYC status would be a deal killer, since any team that he went to would have to be able to fit his $9M under the cap, while only giving SA $5M or so in salary. That would normally require the other team to have enough space under the cap to eat the difference. In the Rockets case, the same thing is accomplished with the trade exception. I don't believe that there is any rule preventing two BYC players for being traded for each other, it's just not something that is going to happen often, because both teams would need free cap space or trade exceptions. I belive there is a rule prohibiting two sign and trade players from being include in the same deal, so that would kill any chance of something like a Mobley for Duncan deal. But if one of the BYC players was in the 2nd year of their contract it should be doable. Here's an example: Let's say that Denver wants to trade Antonio McDyess for Tim Duncan. For the sake of the example lets say McDyess is in the 2nd year of his contract that pays him $7.5M and that Duncan is going to sign for $7M. -So, both guys are BYC. -Duncan's trade value to SA as a 1st year BYC player is (50% of $7M) or $3.5M. - McDyess' trade value to Den as a 2nd year BYC player is (75% of $7.5M) or $5.62M -SA gives up $7M in salary, if SA is over the cap, then they can only get back 115% of Duncan's $3.5 trade value and they can't do the deal. If SA, had say $3.5M available in cap space or trade exception, then they can get around the 115% rule and the deal works. -Den gives up $7.5M in salary.If Den is over the cap, then they can only get back $5.6M and the deal doesn't work. If Den also had around $2M in cap space or trade exceptions available,then then can make the deal work. was discussing a Jones-Iverson sign/trade Iverson isn't a free agent. ------------------
If Houston could land in the top 4 via this three way deal, package it with remnants of value from team to get Odom. Reasoning 1)LAC gets an extra year before flight. 2)Odom is proven whereas no one in the draft is proven. 3)Francis, Odom, and SA would create a great rebounding trio from the small positions. Dreamworld scenario though. ------------------ "You've got 6 fouls, use them well" -Derrick Coleman
Joe IMHO: 1. In the scenario you suggested: We would have to include Cato in the trade to the Clips to get Odom. In other words it would take more than Drew(who they like), Walt(who they could use), or KT(to replace Taylor's spot, although I hope we get to see KT another year in a Rox uni). That means we need the pick to shore up the front or at least get a quality draft at PF. If we don't end up with the pick, then we need to have O'Kandi and Nesby inbcluded in there somewhere. 2. I like your thinking though. A roster with Stevie, Mooch, Shandon, Cuttino, and Lamar Odom makes my head spin. ------------------ "Let me get this straight .... we pay him $4.5 million dollars a year to play 82 games right? And, the other guy we pay $6 or $7 Million a year to stop the other team from scoring and maybe to score once in a while too!" ......... Popeye's darling sweetpea attempting to figure out WizBang and CaveInTo's role on the Rockets.
i was reading on espn.com and bskball.com that orlando wants to hold onto its picks going into the lottery and then possibly trade them afterwards to land a free agent or something. ------------------ you are to be praised by gods and revered as women.
After digesting much of what Popeye has given us, I'd like to try to pull it all together into a creative package. I looks like the Rockets intend to be very aggressive this year. And we might find that this Orlando trade is a "means to an end", rather than an end only. Let's look at it for a second: 1. Everyone wants Orlando's pick. 2. Rockets have only one ticket selling player 3. Only about 1 or 2 players per draft can boost fan enthusiam and effect ticket sales. 4. There is a threat that SA will lose their ticket seller. 5. Popeye is saying that CD really likes the exception, which tends to make me believe he is actively floating trades that use it, and it is sparking interest from other teams. 6. One thing about the exception that I'd like to reiterate is, if we use it, it essentially transfers to Team X, for them to use the following year. In this sense, the exception is a commodity that has trade value in and of itself. 7. While Popeye's comments about the value of ridding yourself of obligations exists, I feel this thread is overstating it. If Orlando wants a late pick next year, they can get it in the trade, houston or not. Thus, I do not subscribe to the opinion that the Rockets have a better negotiation position with Orlando that any other team. To get Duncan,,,or other big Fish,,,I believe we must get that Orlando pick and use that player selected as trade bait. I no longer believe any package of current players we put together for Duncan is going to work, because no one is a ticket seller except Francis. SA will only trade Duncan for someone who can fill seats. I believe Martin/Swift for Duncan could go straight up, from what Popeye has been saying. Again, to land big Fish later in the summer, we must first get Orlando to give us their pick. I would elevate the importance of that to trading Cato (with reasonable expectations of getting a quality Amechi role player as compensation, and others, so Orlando only takes a $2.666m hit to the cap), or use Vancouver to dump Cato on, so Orlando takes no cap hit. There is a chance that the exception is valued as a commodity so much by other teams that Cato/etc. and the $4.4m could attract studs all by itself. But, I believe that the #3 AND the exception is a far superior bait. Lastly: Don't fear trading Cato for this pick just because there are no centers in the draft. If we get that pick, we can parlay that into a stud center/pf. The #3 and the trade value of the exception can work miracles this summer!!!! Thanks Popeye...this thread has really opened my eyes!! [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 05, 2000).]
