I know some of you guys already got this, but in case some of you guys weren't reading between the lines, if I understood right,Popeye seemed to be saying that Orlando is required to give a first round pick to Vancouver and one to Houston in the next few years. By "giving" Vancouver a first round pick (#3), they would be fulfilling that committment. Vancouver would then "give" their #4 to Orlando, who would "give" it to Houston, thereby releiving their responsibility of the first round pick to Houston, which they owe. Houston would then "give" them their #9 pick. As Popeye said, there would be "more" (like KT)to balance out the trades. But the primary concept in this trade would not just be a #9 for a #4, or a #3 for a #4, but would be more like us trading our #9, plus the first round pick they Orlando owes us for Vancouver's #4, and Orlando trading the #3 pick to Vancouver for their #4 and future first round pick they owe them. That eliminates future considerations, and still gives them 3 good players, including guys like Miller, Moiso, and Barkley. I would also assume that part of the negotiations has to do with who Vancouver takes at #3. I don't beleive Houston would trade up to that position to get Fizer, who is too much like someone we already have in KT. So probably there is a deal being struck to make sure that Vancouver takes Fizer so we can take Swift, assuming Mihm comes out and Chicago takes him. ------------------ the more I know, the more I know I don't know...
Get a better picture, that doesnt look like fizer at all. This does.. Hmm, he has pretty fat legs. ------------------ President of the Moochie Norris FAN CLUB [This message has been edited by Francis3 (edited May 04, 2000).]
thanks Sherlock!!! That clears up most of what Popeye was saying. I have a valuation follow-up if you don't mind. Give me your fair assessment on the difference in value between a #3 and #9. Does the fact you take care of two obligations match that? If not, what do you think the difference is in terms of Rockets players. thx after re-reading...what you are saying is Orlando is willing to do a #3 for #9, and two future picks (let's say a #20 and #20) I say two #20s for 6 spots in the lottery sucks. Is that your Final Answer? (Ignore my affront; I'm just jabbing at you.) I want to know what you would really accept as a Magic fan. Personally, I'd trade a #9 and two #20s for a #3 any day. I don't know why any Magic fan would give up a #3 for that!!! This is not the NFL. Only 12 people make the roster. CATO IS 7 FOOT TALL CATO CATO CATO! [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 04, 2000).]
heypartner, I have no idea where to look for more CBA contract language other than the Coon site. The trade timing and how the GS - Atlanta, Toronto - Indiana trades are the ones that come to mind. I though about your Cato scenario and this is the only way it would make sense for Orlando. Pip did a sign-and-trade to get on a better salary track and wouldn't it help Hill and Duncan to do the same? Orlando would repackage Cato and other considerations for a sign-and-trade for either Hill or Duncan and get the other as a straight out FA. The Brit or Doleac and Bo Outlaw coming to Houston to offset the loss of Cato. Swapping draft picks and other minor things to make it all work out. If Orlando has gone to this much trouble to set the table for the golden rings of Hill and/or Duncan, why would they suddenly set their sights lower and settle for Cato? Isn't this why Houston is asking Dream to say as soon as pssible what he plans to do for next season so they can make their plans? Big Country? Unless Houston gets plenty of extra juice, no way. Mango ------------------ The Serious Police are watching Donate Blood
there is another... If this trade goes down, my money is on Cato staying here. Orlando has cap room. Why would they waste a 1/3 of that on a middle tier, borderline Ostersmack? We'll buy players from Orlando, I'm guessing, taking the added risk of spending potential cap space (for next year) so that they can better market themselves with more cap space this year. Vancouver - 3 Houston - 4 Orlando - 9 Houston buys 1 or 2 players for $4.5M. Which 4 players (do they do 3 on IR) are signed past 08/01? Sure we can get one of their free agents signed, but what added cap space would they get from that? Other than what they would retrieve via renouncing. ------------------
heypartner, as I mentioned, I think the "more" of the trade is possibly Kenny Thomas, so that would make it trading their #3 pick for: <OL>[*] Rockets # 9 [*] Kenny Thomas, on all rookie 2nd team [*] dumping an older player with KT size contract [*] and 2 later first round picks from stronger drafts than this one. [*]and still getting Miller, Moiso, and Barkley, but without the big contracts from draft picks earlier in the lottery ------------------ the more I know, the more I know I don't know...
It would be far more favorable to the Rockets cause to trade something like KT, Drew, 9th pick and future pick(s) as opposed to dealing Cato. The objective should be to build around the pieces that are already here instead of dealing the only legit 7 footer on this team outside Olajuwon. The Rockets frontcourt would become much improved if they can add a player like Stromile Swift alongside Kelvin Cato. However, if they basically added Swift and lost Cato, the frontline would still be extremely thin and in need of a true 7 footer that can block shots, run the floor etc. Also, I am not ready to give up on Cato. I still feel even though the poor performance season, he has plenty of upside and its too early to jettison him. This was the first time in his career he had a legit stretch of PT as opposed to the inconsistent MPG in Portland. ------------------ Check out the Best Source for Draft Info Draftsource.net
ONCE AGAIN--for the reading comprehension challenged!! Re-read Popeye's post. **Recent commitments have moved players (draft prospects) that Orlando is interested in towards the middle of the first round. **Both of Popeye's sources think there is a strong possibility that Vancouver's involvement is to receive the three, Houston gets the four and Orlando the nine. How does this benefit each team? Vancouver moves up in the draft Houston moves up in the draft Orlando only uses one first round pick (the #3) to satisfy two obligations (owing a first rounder to both Houston and Vancouver) AND they even get one in return (the #9) All of this is speculation as Popeye mentioned; there may be "more" as Popeye mentioned (none of this may even happen). But if you re-read his post, you'll see---THIS COULD GO DOWN AS A STRAIGHT UP TRADE FOR FIRST ROUND PICKS THAT DOES NOT INVOLVE ANY PLAYERS AT ALL! ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
ROCKET RIVER WISDOM [Or a THOUGHT] HEYPART - possibilities of Players gone CATO WALT 'LOS Drew I think the X-factor in this deal is OUTSIDE of the Deal . . . . . LEON SMITH I honestly think the Rockets will pick him up. Then go After a PF Then you can Go with Francis/Anderson/Smith/PF/Cato VERY YOUNG. VERY MOLDABLE BENCH Moochie/Mobley/[Walt/los which ever not traded]/Pig-tmass-bull/pig-tmass-bull Still thin at PF and C BUT what ever we get BACK from this Deal could help that [i.e. Pig Country] BUT HONESTLY. I think if we pick up LEON SMITH . . . . the the SF need is not pressing for this year. This Year is all About PF or C. Rocket River ------------------
Ok, I promise that this is the last time I'll say this: Leon Smith is not a small forward. He doesn't doesn't have the skills to play the position. ------------------
Pole, I hope you are right. I'm just asking you to look at it from a Magic fan's perspective. Personally, there is no way I'd give up a #3 for a #9 and 2 future late round picks. My experience is picks like a #3 are giving equal value THAT YEAR. Future stuff has really weak value. Again, why wouldn't they just do this with a #5-8 and not worry about the Rocket's obligation. One thing is for sure, we should do that Draft Pool 2,000 for the Draft Party. Here's the deal. We name enough college, HS, NBA players and one wild card to equal the number of people in our draft pool. Everyone picks a name. Whoever ends up with the player we end up with at the end of the day, wins the pool. The wild card is if no one in the hat ends up a rocket. Anyone who gets Martin or Leon Smith must buy a round of drinks. Tie's like getting Swift and Bo Orlando in one trade split the pot. [This message has been edited by heypartner (edited May 04, 2000).]
Heypartner, I agree that from a Magic's fan perspective, this would suck--but if Doc thinks there isn't much difference in the first 10 picks--or if thinks that any one of them could be a boon or a bust, then this makes sense for the magic. They OWE Houston and Vancouver each a first round pick. Where else could they get a deal to fulfill both of those obligations with only one pick AND still get a lottery pick in return. I'm talking about a deal that involves ONLY these three lottery picks and nothing else. Doc says, "Vancouver, I know we owe you a first rounder--how would you like to move up in the draft instead? If they agree, he says, "Houston, I know we owe you a first rounder--how would you like to move up in the draft instead?" If both teams agree, Orlando fulfills both obligations AND still has a #9 lottery pick. HELL, if they do the deal before the lottery, Orlando could conceivably fulfill both obligations AND still get one, two or all three of the first three picks! It's a gamble, but if Doc is not sold on this year's draftees, then there's little or no risk. If he thinks that the next couple of year's drafts will be stocked, the risk is further reduced. I'm anxious to see how this pans out because I think it could be a win-win-win situation for all three teams. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
How about this: Doc's boss says: "Doc, I'm not given that #3 away for a #9 and two sucky future picks, because Houston will give up more for it. Here, I'm going to talk to CD on the phone, now. Listen to how we negotiate in the front office." ring..."Hey CD, you can have our #4 (via Vancouver) now, or we are going to give you a sucky one next year. If you want the #4, you are going to have to pay for it. I hear Cato is a 7 footer." CD says: "Yes, Cato is a 7 footer. But that's too much, we need something out of that. I want your #3. You get the #4. And Vancouver can have the #9 and Cato if they give us Othello back and Reeves." CD then puts him on mute and tells Rudy: "Get San Antonio on the phone and ask them who they would want us to pick with the #3 slot. I want trade bait for Duncan, and they already found out Cato isn't really 7' dammit. Oh, and see what they think of Reeves." CD then says: "What is that clicking sound on the line." Popeye then hangs up the phone.
I knew you wouldn't let us down! One thing, I thought first rounders had guaranteed contracts...my point is, wouldn't that make more sense for Orlando to move a few of their picks so they wouldn't be obligated to large contracts when they are trying to lock down so many free agents from their current team? I don't think the person included would be Cato, UNLESS the Rockets are getting something else in addition to moving up. That is too big a risk to take, ESPECIALLY in this draft. No way we give up the #9 and Cato to move to the #4 slot. Also, Mango stole some of my thunder bringing Duncan into the mix. No way they sacrifice cap room that early in the off-season. Bad move on Orlando's part if they do that. Also, let's not forget about the possibility of Drew being shipped off somewhere! ------------------ We're going to miss you Chuck! Thanks for all the memories!
DAMN, 55 posts in just under 20 hours....it has to be a record!! ------------------ We're going to miss you Chuck! Thanks for all the memories!
AAAAAAAGGGHGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! After this, I give up. They aren't giving us anything. They already owe us something--as well as Vancouver. Instead of giving up two first round picks, they come away scott-clean without having to give up anything other than a few places in the lottery. ------------------ stop posting my damn signature
I spoke to one individual last night and asked if they had seen Popeye's post -- said not yet. I told this person about it and he/she said it "wouldn't be surprising" but also added it will be tougher than you imagine because "everyone wants in the top picks" and it's a matter of seeing "who will bite" and trade out of that area. Said it's going to be extremely tough to get in the top 3. Also reiterated what we've been saying before about the Rockets not being overly thrilled about 9-12, etc. The $4.5 million trade slot (which is really 4.4, but who is counting?) the Rockets have is going to be extremely valuable... We can all speculate and this is what this individual was speculating (PURE speculation -- nothing behind this), but was saying to watch some of the big name (and big dollar players) out there that are unhappy... or both sides unhappy (Antoine Walker in Boston -- possibly Glenn Robinson in Milwaukee) over the offseason. When you couple Cato, who is making about $6 million a year, with that 4+ million trade slot the Rockets have there ... possibly put in Drew in there, you're looking at being able to acquire an $11-12 million player... I don't have names we'd be looking at yet... and this is common knowledge when you put 2 and 2 together, but I found it very interesting to hear this person say that. ------------------ NOTHING BUT .NET CLUTCHCITY.NET [This message has been edited by Clutch (edited May 04, 2000).]
Clutch, that's funny. Walker and Robinson's names were thrown out on this morning's show by Lance (I believe) talking about possibly moving Cato + 4.5M exception. Anyone catch Jim Boylen on in the 9 o'clock hour? [This message has been edited by Tb-Cain (edited May 04, 2000).]
