Houston City Council on Slave Reparations

Also, I don't know if the slave trading was very steady during that time period, but that is an average of 1,078 slaves per year.

 

Yes, but without slavery there is no America.

One of the main reasons that our "great" country was able to become a dominant world power is because for a great portion of it's history, the majority of it's labor was FREE. I don't think you are truly realizing the impact of a country having millions of people, working (and I mean heavy work i.e. plowing fields, picking cotton, etc...) for NOTHING. Talk about a major economy boost, especially back then when our economy was based on physical labor more than ever.

I figure if you leave these millions of Africans in their own country, which at the time possessed more riches than America (I'm talking about the land, which possessed more natural resources than American soil.....the raping of Africa for it's resources was just as detrimental as slavery, but that's another subject), allow them to work for their damn selves and reap the benefits of THEIR COUNTRY'S resources, then they would be better off than the African-Americans in the US today, who didn't even receive "equal" rights until the 60's.

Before making that assumption you have to consider the ramifications of slavery and the raping of Africa as a whole. If there were no slavery, then the US of today would not be what it is, and I highly doubt anyone will disagree with me about that.

Some would say that was a nice description of our beloved USA. People starve here, diseases run rampant and education is not taken seriously by everyone even though kids here are forced to go to school.

 

Would it be legitimate for every citizen of the former Soviet Union to sue Russia for all the things they did wrong? Can over one billion Chinese sue the PRC for the Cultural Revolution? Almost one billion Indians can sue Great Britain? Can decendants of serfs throughout Europe sue the governments of their birth for their lack of ancestral opportunity? How about the Incas/Aztecs/Mayans et al suing Spain? Maybe the Italians can sue the Greeks for when the Greeks made them slaves, and then the Greeks can sue the Italians back for the days when Romans made them slaves?

 

Originally posted by Icehouse
Yes, but without slavery there is no America.

Bold statement. Can you direct us to a link that supports this assertion?

One of the main reasons that our "great" country was able to become a dominant world power is because for a great portion of it's history, the majority of it's labor was FREE. I don't think you are truly realizing the impact of a country having millions of people, working (and I mean heavy work i.e. plowing fields, picking cotton, etc...) for NOTHING. Talk about a major economy boost, especially back then when our economy was based on physical labor more than ever.

Didn't some communist countries try about the same thing, but on a larger scale? Didn't provide much of an economic boost there.

BTW, what was the cost to this country when it fought a civil war, and for years afterwards?

The North and South spent $8,000,000,000 direct expenditures. Another $3,300,000,000 was spent by the North on pensions from the war. One million dead. These values do not even consider the destroyed property (particulalrly in the South).

http://www.civilwarhome.com/warcosts.htm

A suit alledges 'The lawsuit does not seek a specific dollar amount, but estimates slaves performed as much as $40 million worth of unpaid labor between 1790 and 1860.'

http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/26/slavery.reparations/

I don't care for your hypothesis much.

I figure if you leave these millions of Africans in their own country, which at the time possessed more riches than America (I'm talking about the land, which possessed more natural resources than American soil.....the raping of Africa for it's resources was just as detrimental as slavery, but that's another subject), allow them to work for their damn selves and reap the benefits of THEIR COUNTRY'S resources, then they would be better off than the African-Americans in the US today,...

So, there's nothing else about this country that lead to it's greatness?

All highly speculative points, and IMHO, not really on point.

The first question to be answered: should descendants of those wronged receive reparations 100 years later? It has nothing to do with the magnitude of those effected or how much other people profited.

...Some would say that was a nice description of our beloved USA. People starve here, diseases run rampant and education is not taken seriously by everyone even though kids here are forced to go to school.

A wonder why people immigrate here if this is a 'nice description' of it.

 

My Friend I don't think you have ever been to Africa. The place is a war zone. People have no rights, they are simply manipulated by the elite, corrupt, ruling classes and are fodder to their will.
Starvation strikes on mass scales. The travesty is that there is enough food in many areas, but it is hoarded by the tribal lords to control their power. To compare the economy and educational system there is simply ignorance. Though many people may not take education "seriously", in Africa very few people even have the chance to get an education, let alone a free one.

This comment may draw some criticism, but I personally think that African-Americans should rejoice that they were brought here as slaves because they are now citizens of the US enjoying the freedom's and the perks of this country, while their African counterparts are starving to death and trying to come to this country.

 

No. This is why our legal system has a statute of limitations and a limited survivorship of claims. If I am burned to death in a crash caused by a drunk driver, my grandchildren cannot sue. It is all about definiteness of claims in a reasonable time period. Not to mention the fact that I don't think this qualifies under the Federal Tort Claims Act. If it does not then no suit would be effective due to sovereign immunity.

 

FD,
First, let's clarify. You personally think that 'African-Americans should rejoice that their ancestors were brought here as slaves because they are now citizens of the US enjoying the freedom's and the perks of this country,...'




I feel silly and pretentious having to emphasize this (and this isn't directed to you FD since you didn't start this tangent) but all of this talk about where African-Americans would be better-off just sounds ludicrous to me because all of them are Americans, period. All of us came into existence through the specific circumstances of our ancestors. It is highly unlikely that any individual African-Americans would even be alive today if their ancestors were not brought here. African-Americans were destined to be born here, or nowhere. THIS is their country.

This ancestor/descendant stuff obfuscates. The real issue is once an American is born, do they have the opportunity for happiness? success? Those issues should be addressed directly, not through an analysis of one's ancestors.

 

Cohen--

While I agree with you that we shouldn't talk about who came from where, I understand why this topic devolves into that. The notion of reparations is to put the people in the position they would have been in if the poor action (in this case slavery) had never taken place. We all know where a good many of them would be.

It's a flawed argument...but I can grasp their thought process.

 

Can't disagree with you there.

 

Of course not. Slavery did exist...so it is impossible to gather data about what would have happened if it didn't exist. I never said America would not exist. I said it would not be the power that it is today, because removing slavery from the equation changes EVERYTHING. I highly doubt that there is any research on this because I can’t think of how anyone could do it, but if you realize that America was built through the slave trade then you can see how the assumption is quite logical. Think of the time when our country was founded. What was America? A huge pile of land, with resources ready to be harvested and kept for use or sold. Then you throw in an entire race of people to do the major work (the manual labor) FOR FREE…….FOR DECADES!!!

What time period was this? Did these countries already exist, and were they just trying to implement a new system? If these countries were already in existence, then you can’t compare the two situations, because our countries early economic foundation was BUILT on slavery. The time period is crucial because during slavery, manual labor was the driving force behind our economy (for example, slavery would not work in 2002 because skilled workers like bankers, accountants and lawyers are a vital part of our economic system). Therefore, my assumption is that if you remove slavery, our country would not have grown and expanded so quickly.

Can you really compare the building of a countries economic system to the price of a war? I know statistics and research are important, but at times when these figures cannot be obtained you have to let your logic guide you.

I never said America sucked, but the references made in F.D. Kahn’s quote (rampant spreading of Aids, starving people, education not being a priority) exist in our country AS WELL.

My comment was not on reparations because I am neutral. My comment was on the assumption (which also lacks factual validity because it can’t be proven unless someone has a time machine) that descendants of slaves are better off here because America is at the top of the game today. Are blacks in America as a whole better off than most blacks in other parts of the world? Sure we are. The country benefited a great deal from our ancestors free labor since it’s inception, at a time where labor was the most valued asset in the world. I just don’t see how anyone can not logically reason that these Africans would not have been better off by being the direct beneficiaries of their own labor, in their own country (and staying in touch with their own culture and history, which is vital in the advancement of a people).

Yes, I am proud to be an American and native Houstonian. I feel blessed to have been born in the best country in the world and to reap the benefits of being a citizen here. However, that does not make me forget how fu**ed up things were just 40 years ago (I am 24 myself). It does not stop me from wondering how things would be if people would have left my ancestors the hell alone (and yes, I am including my greedy ancestors that were involved in the slave trade….even though their idea of slavery was completely different…but that’s another topic). Loving Houston does not make me forget that the land I call home was stolen from its original inhabitants, etc…

Now that I have answered your reply Cohen, please explain to me how you feel that Africans would not have been better off being free to develop their own, resource laden country and harvest it’s benefits?

 

Icehouse, you act like black slaves were the only laborers in the early American economic system. I would posit that these uneducated, unskilled laborers contributed far, far less per capita, than did their skilled counterparts -- who by the way made up the vast majority of the economic system. Additionally, much of America's success is owed to its superior financial system and efficient capital markets, which developed with the help of people like Alexander Hamilton, JP Morgan, Andrew Carnegie, Cornelius Vanderbilt, Nelson Rockefeller, etc. etc. Agriculture was not the only determinant of success, as you seem to imply with your crude "huge pile of land, with resources ready to be harvested" comment.

keep trying

 

Uh.....how about the countries in Africa? There exists many natural resources there, like oil (Ivory Coast) and precious metals to name only two. Africans were free to develop that and harvest its benefits.

 

Wait a minute....you mean since somewhere in history my ancestors were conquered and enslaved, I am entitled to reperations?

I mean at some point in time, ALL OF US, have ancestors that were slaves.

Slavery was an accepted practice in the 1800's it is impossible for us to put our idealogy into perspective because times are completely different.

Slavery is dead...and so are all the slaves.

Get over it.

DD

 

I don't agree with everything Icehouse said...but you've got to be accurate. From 1790-the mid 1800s this country in the South was primarily agricultural. There frankly wasn't a hell of a lot else. Oh you could've gone out west and panned for gold...but that would be a form of agriculture too. I think you're a little misguided here Mr. Rolleyes.

 

This is just my uninformed opinon on this subject. I think both sides of this issue have valid points and I think a commitee to study reparations shouldn't be dismissed so quickly. I fail to see the harm that could come from an unbiased study.

Now, on to my uninformed opinion. I am against reparations. I think slavery was wrong, but so were many things. The cleansing of Native Americans, the torture of supposed heretics during the Inquisiton, the burning of women accused of witchcraft just to name a few. You can find wrongdoing all throughout history, but nothing we do now can change it and no amount of money can make it right.

Also, I have questions about the longterm effect that slavery had on the growth of America. If slavery was primarily used in the south as cheap farm labor, wasn't all or at least most of that wealth and growth lost during the war? Here in Atlanta, almost everything was destroyed by the Union soldiers. They burnt every farm they came to, and turned Atlanta herself into rubble.

So I guess the question I have is; If you build your economic and industial system on the back of slave labor, and all that is destroyed in the process of freeing said people, where do you stand?

 

I want reparations for my Chinese ancestors that were slaves building American Rail! I even have some Irish ones who did all the Hard Labor in the early years and were treated almost like slaves.I want reparation for my English Great Grand Father that was hanged in the South because he had swarthy skin etc. etc. etc. etc. I want reparation for all the jobs I lost because I was educated and not ethnic enough!Slavery was a disgusting part of European,African and American History. Yes I include Africa as many African Slaves were sold to Europeans by Africans, so we should all share the blame!IMHO

 

If the South had not had the manual labor supplied by slaves, would they have been forced to turn from their agricultural based economy? Might accellerating industrial development and mechanization in the South have changed a century and a half of poverty, making the country as a whole much stronger? So who says slavery made us STRONGER?

And is it possible that African-Americans have not been as successful in emerging from the lower rungs of society because they did not CHOOSE to come to the US en masse as did the Italians, Polish, Irish, Germans, English of the 19th century, or the South Americans or East Asians of today did?

 

Refman,
*Primarily* agricultural during that time period, not *entirely* agricultural. You still had construction, transportation, services, trades, etc which played small, yet important roles. And that time period did not by itself launch America's economy on the path to growth that differentiated it from the world. Only when America started producing more value-added, higher skilled goods/services did they start to pull away. My point was that there were many determinants which "built" America's economy over time, agriculture was one cog in the wheel.

 

True...but important to note that most of the innovations in that time period revolved around agriculture. The rest of the economy revolved around services that were ancillary to agriculture. I know there were trades, etc that did not but the larger part of the economy revolved around agriculture.