House Democrat calls for immediate troop withdrawal

Nice, thegary. Thanks for it.

 

You do realize that Rep. Paul is a member of your beloved GOP, right? Everything he said is spot on accurate and unusually candid for a member of Congress. It must be nice to be able to silence all criticism with claims that the speaker or the message is "pathetic."

What is pathetic is the inability of some to see that it is rapidly approaching the time when Iraqis will have to be responsible for themselves. If we are simply going to stay in Iraq as long as there is an insurgency, then we will have to plan to be there for decades.

How is it irresponsible to call for an end to this war? Irresponsible is cutting taxes over and over during a war and running the biggest deficits this country has ever seen.

Contrary to Bush's interests, for sure, but Bush is not America. I say that American interests would be served by putting the Iraqis on notice that they will have to take care of themselves, and that they don't have a decade or more to prepare.

This is the most egregiously idiotic statement that war supporters keep crowing. How in God's name does anything in this speech in any way endanger the troops?

Maybe if we could get GWB to define "win the war," he would enjoy more support. He doesn't want timelines, he doesn't want benchmarks, he apparently just wants us to support his ill conceived, poorly planned, and horribly executed war forever.

 

tell that to bush..

isn't that what you war experts supposedly be doing for the past 2 damn years??

 

That would be nice, but we are dealing with an administration and a Congress that will NEVER listen to, much less change policy based on the ideas of the Democrats. They are going to do it their way and they have the votes to do it. Democrats TRIED to do all the things you mentioned and have been shot down at every turn.

 

Wow. Then I guess all this dissenting is just blowing hot air. I have to say I at least gave you guys credit for believing you could make a difference.

 

I think we can....after '06 when the Congress veers a bit more left.

 

The Democrats are making a difference. Notice how a few elections went the Dem's way recently and how Bush's poll numbers are dragging down... now moderate Republicans are turning on the administration and demanding accountability as well. As time goes, and more and more people speak out in this voice, that's when the impact will hopefully be felt.

The Executive Branch controls the military - trying to change military policy is stupid. Congress can't micromanage a war. Changing public opinion, however, can have an impact and looks like it is leading Congress in a different direction. It's slow, but it appears to be building momentum.

 

I was responding to Andy's comment not expressing an opinion that dissent can't equal change. His comment was that dissent won't change what Congress or the administration do. My point is that if you're going to use a change in public opinion to change policy (public opinion gets Congress to use their power in your scenario) then why not use it to fix the problems rather than push for immediate withdraw? I don't have a problem with the push for accountability but I think a push to immediately withdraw is also a mistake. Dissent for accountability and action can presumably affect change - let's make it count.

 

"The war in Iraq is not going as advertised. It is a flawed policy wrapped in illusion," Murtha said.

Making a Republican Talking Point work for the greater good, ...

You know the Congress and the President share the same intell, so he must be seeing the same " flawed policy wrapped in illusion" as the President.

 

A reasonable response to the congressman's statement from someone who supports the war. One may choose to disagree, but one can have a conversation about it. Hayes, you left out ardently working to elect at least one Democratic branch of Congress in '06 to bring Bush to heel.

An unreasonable response. basso calls a moderate Republican Senator, Chuck Hagel, who made a very intelligent, well articulated speech about the war, "pathetic." Apparently, in basso's faction of the Republican Party, there is no room for disagreement with the Administration, no matter who it comes from, or what the content is. No room for dissent. Zip. None. Nada.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

this is not a question of dissent. it is a question of whether the policy advocated by murtha and hagel is responsible, and will aid the WOT. it will not, it will only embolden our enemies, and lead to a greater risk of attacks on the US and american interests. bin laden and islamofascists everywhere will understand that america simply does not have the will to fight.

 

True, but if our current administration doesn't lose it's arrogance and stubborness we may end up doing things we did not want to.

 

I think the fight in Iraq is more with Sunnis who are mad that we kicked them out of power. U.S. forces went into Afgahanstan to fight Osama and friends but didn't finish the job. Oh yea, Saddam and Osama were best buddies, NOT! I personally never thought we should have gone over to fight in Iraq. Only short sighted Neo-boobs thought it was a good idea and then fed the country a bunch of disinformation to get the lemmings to follow along on George's crusade.

 

Continuing the policy in place demonstrates to bin laden and company that Americans are thickskulled and willing to beat their brains into a wall in order to not admit failure. That's not in America's best interests either.

This dissent is forcing the issue on to the table. The final result will hopefully not be the Bush policy or the withdrawal policy, but that pressure may just force both sides to come up with a functional strategy.

 

Are you really that paranoid? And if not, do you have any proof to back up your claims of “embolden our enemies?” You keep throwing out this claim. I'd like to see some proof.

 

bi Laden cites the US withdrawal from Vietnam, the retreat from Beirut in 1983 and the the pull out from Somalia in 94 was evidence that Americans lack the will to fight and can be scared into submission. Looks like he's scared Murtha and Hagel, who has seen his chance of winning the republican nomination drop to nearly zero in recent weeks (Frist as well).

 

The U.S. had no business being in Vietnam, Beirut or Somalia just like Iraq. It's not a matter of the will to fight, but making mistakes on where the fight is.

 

Wow. I just saw a portion of Rep. John Murtha's address on the evening news, and it was a very powerful and moving. The man was the first Vietnam veteran to be elected to Congress. He earned a Bronze Star and 2 Purple Hearts, and retired as a colonel after 37 years in the Marines and the Marine Corps Reserve. Murtha has been a very strong supporter of the military, veterans, and defense spending throughout his career. He voted for the authorization Bush used to invade Iraq. For him to make a statement like this is a very big deal.

Frankly, I'm blown away.



Keep D&D Civil.

 

Why thank you, kind suh! One could certainly add that last suggestee-on to thuh list!

No, this is pretty much true. I've made the same argument and you won't have to look through to much literature to find bin Laden saying this about Somalia specifically and diplomats among others saying it about Lebanon.