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HOU last in league in charges taken

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by KellyDwyer, Jan 31, 2006.

  1. KellyDwyer

    KellyDwyer Member

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    No, the Rockets ARE good, they're just not "excellent" like you said.

    The stat itself isn't obscure. It is used by all teams, and by both basketball-reference.com and basketballreference.com as a way of determining overall offensive/defensive efficiency.

    By noting how many points teams score in a hundred possessions, you can level the playing fields between polar opposite teams like Indiana (slow) and the Suns (fast). This is the reason why we don't think that Mike Fratello's Cavs teams were the greatest defensive teams of all time.

    Anyway, here's a listing of the teams, updated daily:

    http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/d_de.htm

    Beyond that, I just posted this as a novelty. I certainly don't think that the amount of charges taken ... how shall I put this? ... it doesn't mean these teams can actually play defense. The deductions in the article itself states as much.
     
  2. GATER

    GATER Member

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    IMHO, some of what you state needs to be taken in a broader context.

    First, given the depth of injuries they have suffered any current Rockets' stat has a very large Mutombo-Bowen-Moochie-Lucas-Wesley at PG factor. IOW, current stats in any category carry a very large borderline rotation or even non-rotational player component.

    Secondly, I have always felt that using possessions per game to determine pace is way over emphasized. The Grizzlies and Mavericks don't get criticized for a grind it out pace but their games have 85.6 and 88 pos/g respectively. In fact, something as miniscule as 1 additional possession per quarter moves the Rox from 3rd "slowest" to 13th "slowest". That's how closely an overwhelming majority of teams are bunched together in this category.

    Further, if you are going to use possessions per game to diminish the significance of the 6th fewest points allowed/g category let's also point out that the highly regarded defenses of the Pistons (#2 def p/g) and Spurs (#3 def p/g) have games averaging 86.4 & 87.6 pos/g respectively.

    Coincidentally, the Pistons and Spurs (whom few would regard as old and/or unathletic) respectively have taken 16 & 42 more charges than Houston over 40+ games.

    But then again, maybe the Rox don't take as many charges because of the slower pace. :D
     
    #22 GATER, Feb 2, 2006
    Last edited: Feb 2, 2006
  3. KellyDwyer

    KellyDwyer Member

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    The gleam that I took from that post was that the Rockets, as presently constructed, still had an "excellent" defense -- which we all know isn't true. Good, not great, but good ... not excellent.

    Topping that, we ALL know that the Rockets rotation that was set to fly in mid-September (even without Sura) should have been a top-4 defensive team. Of course, we didn't know about injuries, didn't know about Wesley playing dumber than Stro, who was playing dumber then he did in 2001-02, and on and on.

    But the possession count, however slight between the teams the difference remains, is still the way to fly. It's the closest thing we have to leveling the playing field -- and until we find a new way to determine pace statistically, it is the best way to document these things.

    And I will discount pace when regarding points allowed per game -- because if we don't, then we have to call the 1997-98 Cavs the greatest defensive team of all time.

    The Pistons were downright mediocre on D until the last week of December. National TV games against the Spurs were the aberration, actually, but the team has flipped the switch in the weeks following the Christmas Day game. They're now the 6th best, off memory, at points allowed per 100 possessions. And the second-slowest team. And as far as the small difference between the 3rd and 13th-slowest ... well, look at any individual stat (points, rebounds, assists, blocks per game) ... you have your cream at 1-3/4, and a whole lot of also-rans bunched together from there to mediocre'town.

    And once again -- I only posted this article because it was a cute gimmick, and certainly not as an indicator of defensive aptitude. Just an interesting look at the way of the NBA in the post-Rodman era.
     
  4. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    That's fine. I'm not arguing semantics between "good" or excellent." I'm arguing the difference between bad and good.

    So to suggest the Rockets are a BAD defensive team simply based on # of charges taken would be an incorrect conclusion...as most people implied early in this thread.

    Superficially, it appears that the stat WOULD speak to defensive prowess but in reality the exact opposite seems to have more truthiness :).
     
  5. intergalactic

    intergalactic Member

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    Breaking down the stats at knickerblogger.net:
    http://www.knickerblogger.net/stats/2006/d_ft4.htm

    The Rockets defensive strengths are in holding down the opponets FG% (10th out of 30 in EFG%) and preventing offensive rebounds (9th). We're terrible in forcing turnovers (28th) and below average in limiting opponent free throws (18th).

    These stats reflect what we are -- a slow team that does a good job in preventing easy shots and prefers giving up free throws to easy layups. In other words, we are doing well in fundamental team skills, like defensive positioning and forcing the other team into their 3rd or 4th scoring option.That's a sign of good game planning, and I give JVG credit for that.

    On the other hand, we don't force turnovers. But, IMO, that's a stat that's more difficult for a coach to affect. Turnovers generally require a combination of anticipation, speed and athleticism, and its much more up to individual players to seize the opportunity when they see it. The lack of drawing charges is just another sign that we don't have enough players who can do that. Seriously, even with perfect positioning, would we expect Juwan Howard to be a force in patrolling the passing lanes?
     
  6. KellyDwyer

    KellyDwyer Member

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    82games? You're on notice.
     
  7. krosfyah

    krosfyah Member

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    Easy. Defensively, the Rockets are performing simularly to last season so the evidence is already at hand. Now offensively, that is a WHOLE other story. They are flat out dismal.
     
  8. tinman

    tinman 999999999
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    really? i didn't know that. is the earth round and do fish swim?
     
  9. KellyDwyer

    KellyDwyer Member

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    There's just no way they're performing at last year's levels. Not with Yao's missing defensive presence in the middle, Sura's steals, Tracy's zoning, etc. They're the 14th-best team statistically, and I think they were 2nd or 3rd (whichever one Chicago wasn't) last season.
     
  10. gsd99rhc

    gsd99rhc Member

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    the bulls almost lost the last utah series because pippen had to take too many charges from malone, and he got injured.

    back on topic, as some have said, the stat is really an implication of the rocket's lack of footspeed on defense, more than anything. taking charges (not flopping) is a great way of neutralizing superior offensive playmakers (along with having an intimidator in the paint). it allows quickness and awareness to partially neutralize talent and strength, so the physically weaker team always has a chance to defend the paint if they are smart enough.

    kidd was also great at taking charges when the nets were in their prime--in fact, i remember some of those plays being real momentum changers in the playoffs. it takes some courage to take real charges in the paint (rather than perimeter flopping).
     

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