This is the most assumption filled piece of trash I've read on this board, most likely from a person without children or a spouse of their own. Judging others harshly with out knowing them or their circumstances, telling others how to live their lives, all the while quoting the bible in their signature. Ask God fearing Andrea Yates children if they would have prefered Montisorri school over their stay at home mom. Give me a break your assumptions and holier than thou attitude me want to puke.
Of course, some studies have shown that the GRE and GMAT tests don't accurately measure what the schools who use them want to measure - applicants' potnetial for success in graduate school. Undergraduate grades have been shown to be a much more accurate predictor. To me, we should be able to trust teachers enough to count on the grades they give as a measure of how well students are doing.
Wrong. Married with two children. I told you it was my opinion. It was an intentional generalization. Quoting the bible in my sig? Read it again, sam. Go ahead and puke. There is not a corner in hell hot enough for Andrea Yates crazy ass. Oh yeah, and I didn't judge. I just stated my preference and what I thought. Whatever.
Your accountability equation doesn't work in an educational setting as much as many people would love for it to. The fact is that people all learn differently. Some learn visually, some auditorially, some kinesthetically. Some are good in lecture while others prefer lab. Some are good in groups while others need one-on-one attention. There is no flaw in a person who does not test well any more than there is a flaw in someone who is bad at math or English. We all excel in different areas. Unlike the GRE, MCAT, Bar Exam, etc, standardized testing in schools is supposed to provide a fairly accurate picture of the health of our learning system. It does not. Educators from kindegarten through graduate school have universally begged educational systems to eliminate standard testing as a measure of quality schooling. What every examination of testing has determined is that it does nothing to enhance the education of students. All it does is teach them how to take tests. There are also large corporate groups who have come out over the last year or two and began to privately ask that these systems be re-evaluated. They are getting employees who can fill out forms and take tests (as if anyone does that on a day-to-day basis at work) but have little communication skills or well-rounded knowledge. All of the best preperatory schools on the planet refuse to give standardized testing preferring instead to educate students over a broad range of knowledge while allowing them to take specialized courses of their choosing. Colleges despise them because they push school districts to direct schools to spend 50, 60, even 70 percent of their classroom time on how to take and pass these tests. If they don't pass, they don't get funding, so it isn't really important if the kids get a good, well-balanced education as long as they make it through the testing process. As a result, colleges get kids who don't have basic knowledge. The colleges then have to dumb down courses to re-teach students who should already have that knowledge. If you want even further proof, look no further than the trend by major universities across the country to discount ACT and SAT scores as an enterance requirement. Most feel that they are outdated and serve very little purpose in making an accurate assessment as to who will succeed in college and who will fail. Look, my mother was a guidance counselor for 18 years and the head of secondary guidance for HISD for 15 years. She is now a college guidance consultant for school districts and colleges throughout the US. My father was a high school teacher for 37 years and now is a college professor. I can't tell you how many times I've heard the complaints from them and the studies cited and the arguments put forward. Nearly everyone they have ever worked with thinks standardized testing is ineffective and unreliable at best, a waste of time and tax dollars at worst.
Good for you. I'm happily married with 2 myself. You raise yours and I'll raise mine, deal. For you to judge others so harshly makes you come off as some what of an Ahole. This is about the most judgemental statment I've ever heard. We agree here, but it just goes to show you that sending your children to school doesn't make you a bad parent any more than staying home makes you a good parent. Don't be so judgemental of others before you know their circumstances. I sent my daugther to Montisorri school when she turned two and it has been great for her. She is going on three just read me a book before bed. I think she will be better adjusted and well ahead of her class when she starts "real" school. My wife and I couldn't afford for one of us to stay home for reasons I'll explain if you care to know. Single parents, parents not parenting, and many other issues are at the root of the problems that face todays youth. Judgemental Aholes who want to tell other people how they should be living their lives is another. I hope you teach your children to be more understanding of others and less judgemental than you are.
IMO I am not being offensive or judgmental. (Except for my profanity, which is naturally offensive). I made a blanket statement on our generation and the sh!tty job "we" have done raising "our" kids. This is factual. You calling me an A-hole is personal and judgmental. You have judged that I am an A$$hole. Fine. Holistically we are a selfish generation and we make excuses a lot. We also mistake our needs with our desires. We work 2 jobs to afford the mortgage on the house that we bought that was out of our price range. I did not say YOU. I am speaking in generalities. When your daughter attends public school maybe your opinions will change. I don't know. But when I saw the pathetic excuses of 'parenting' exhibited by the other sperm and egg donors at my sons HISD elementary school I was sickened, and hardened. I felt sorry for the kids in his class. They were good kids. You read my post and made a judgment. Sincerely, Kettle.
kam.. sorry about that.. and I was just about to edit that but I see you already saw it hehe ... ill edit it anyway though lol
Guys, HISD schools are not that bad, at least the Magnet programs. If I'm not mistaken, the magnet programs in Houston high schools are very highly regarded, especially the ones at Lamar (business), Bellaire (language?), Health Professions (health), Booker T (engineering), etc.
A couple of things, speaking as an actual teacher..... 1) TAKS is a brand new test/ assessment supposed to be a better gauge at making sure our students are learning what they are supposed to learn and able to APPLY that knowledge. While it may be a step closer towards assessing what a child actually knows, it is still a standardized test geared towards one very narrow way of demonstrating "knowledge," if you can even call it that. 2) Building on point 1, any standardize test is NOT the "best they can do," but rather a huge compromise in the realms of efficiency and assessment. The best they could do would be to evaluate a child on an individual basis. However, since that is not only incredibly inefficent and expensive, the compromise is an evolving high stakes test that is supposed to somehow determine if a child advances a grade, or even graduates. I truly sympathize with the kids who aren't good test takers, who struggle under such a pressurized situation, because the test-taking experience goes so against so many methods of learning and demonstrating knowledge that have proven to be successful. I'm not saying I have any better solutions. However, it would be silly to lay blame in one particular place, be it the students, the teachers, the children, or even the test. None of them are infallible in this case. It is important, however, to realize that with any test like this that has money hinging on success, there will be many a district out there that emphasize performance on the test above all other things, and that's sad. The fact that HISD didn't perform well on this first time test shouldn't make us think they are all *hitty schools, just as we shouldn't think they are the nation's best if their success rate was 100%.
My judgement of you personally was based on your exact words, in a profanity laced gross generalization of me and many others, without even the most basic knowledge of us or our situation. Don't lump me in with a "worthless pile of human debris" and expect not to get called on it. I go to great lengths to make sure my kids are properly raised and educated. You do the same and at least 4 kids in Houston have a better chance than the half a million students in HISD relying on a public education. IF you find calling a group of people a "worthless pile of human debris" neither offensive or judgemental then this conversation is over.
Honestly, I feel that Chance and VooDoo have some points. Having gone through HISD (elementary school only) myself, I can honestly say that my education was absolutely fine. At the same time, I wasn't pushed to learn this or that. I watched A LOT of TV, never really got out. Once I finished 5th grade (go Owls! yeah right) I immediately went to a private middle school mainly with fears of guns or violence (example: Johnston). The (HISD) education SUCKED after elementary school no question. But I feel that it is absolutely absurd to send your child to a private or so-called "better" elementary school. Most money is spent on K-5th grades, it's a fact. Anyone can tell that there is the most teaching going on during the most influential years of a child. If you think your kid isn't getting much out of school, supplement it with tutoring, or (if you're in high school) college courses. Home school your freaking kid and maybe he/she will become the best speller in the country (oh, that will certainly help them in real life). For god sakes, don't worry about a real education until after elementary school. You can get a fine education in even the poorest of schools teaching the elementary basics. Obviously private school are much more intense and advanced, but a child doesn't need to be pushed like that. My educational map is this: Public for Pre-K through 5th grade, then private for middle school, and back to public for high school (would've done private for hs anywhere else, but the one I was at was VERY racist). My AP classes are pathetic. THe education in this public school is sooooo easy, but it's the best available. And most importantly, it's CHEAPER.
I grew up in a single parent household. My mom worked in the day and went to school at night. I got a 1540 on my SATs and just graduated Magna c*m Laude in computer engineering (not a great idea in todays market). Excuses are like assholes. Everbody has one, and yours stinks. PS - I know that is not your excuse, but an excuse you provided for others, and I'm only half serious anyway.
Jeff, I still disagree with you and feel as though you have offered up quite a bit of conjecture and generalizations, but really nothing objective. The corporate demagoguery was unecessary. Again. My question for the board is why do people bend over backwards to make excuses for students who are unable to pass one of the easiest tests ever created? These students should be reprimanded for their laziness, their incompetence and their refusal to learn what is being taught. These students have made voluntary choices to not make an effort to learn, to prioritize the wrong things in life, and to reject the education that my tax dollars and your tax dollars help pay for. There is *no* reason to show them sympathy -- they are wasting the resources we are providing them. There comes a time when all the 'kindness' and excuses must be eliminated and performance must be demanded. In the abscence of this, these students will continue to make the wrong decisions. It is a *very* reasonable request to ask students to pass the TAKS. For them to be unwilling to put forth the effort to do so is completely unacceptable.
Ok, TJ, all the practical experience of millions of educators and researchers amounts to generalizations and conjecture while your assertion that the test is easy and that obviously kids are just lazy and incompetent is fact. Right. I think you are taking an emotional stance based on a biased point of view with little regard for practical knowledge, but that's just me. This is exactly the reason why affirmative action has been an utter failure. It is these incompetent students who will fill the racial quotas at universities and jobs and give all minorities a bad name. CONJECTURE First, you assume that the students who fail are minorities. I'll ignore the obvious racial overtones of that statement and focus on the fact that many non-minority districts have also had high failure rates - even mr paige pointed that out. We need to eliminate the excuses (low income, bad neighborhood, poor parents) and demand hard work and performance from these students. CONJECTURE You assume once again that this is a simplistic issue that can be defined by minorities vs. whites or poor vs. rich when it obviously cannot. These students should be reprimanded for their laziness, their incompetence and their refusal to learn what is being taught. CONJECTURE How do you know that students are simply lazy and incompetent and that they refuse to learn what is being taught? Prove it. These students have made voluntary choices to not make an effort to learn, to prioritize the wrong things in life, and to reject the education that my tax dollars and your tax dollars help pay for. CONJECTURE Unless you have a crystal ball that allows you to see inside the minds and lives of millions of students, this is an absolute fabrication. There is *no* reason to show them sympathy -- they are wasting the resources we are providing them. CONJECTURE Since you have no practical experience in education, you have no way of know who is wasting what. In the abscence of this, these students will continue to make the wrong decisions. CONJECTURE Once again, you cannot KNOW what is going to happen to anyone. There are numerous education systems throughout the world that have a much higher literacy rate than we do and shun the idea of standardized testing. Obviously, their students make better decisions than ours, yet they don't do testing. Explain that. I think you are allowing your own emotionas to overshadow the fact that you don't really know what you are talking about. You have attempted to solve a complex problem with a sound bite. Since you have no background in education other than going to school, you'll have to forgive me if I give more weight the opinions of educators than I do a post on a basketball BBS.
Nice attempt to turn the tables on me, Jeff, but you still have not offered objective data which supports your stance. That hasn't stopped you from righteously defending its validity, however. But you're probably right, since I haven't really done that well in school, I have no clue what motivates people and allows them to succeed. I mean, come one, look at how bad my educational record is. I graduated #5 in my class of 400 in high school, I scored in the top one-half of one percent on the SAT and was named a National Merit Scholar, I achieved a 3.9 GPA at Rice and graduated Magna c*m Laude. It's clear that I don't have anything relevant to add to this discussion. Remind me what your Ph.D is in and where you teach? Thanks. I did, however, get a chuckle out of you saying that I was getting emotional. Thanks for the chuckle. I have no emotions, as B-Bob and Batman Jones have repeatedly proclaimed. And that all-caps business really is tacky, Jeff.
Man, how psyched would I be if I truly thought eveyone else's failures were based solely on their characterological deficiencies. Especially Public School kids and teachers. Like for instance, the kid at Bartram High in southwest Philadelphia who was president of his class, did his homework, got A's, was loved by teachers, always involved with activities, guaranteed scholarship to Drexel University pending a 900 score on his SATs...watching the look on his face when he opened the envelope that held his score of 790 combined... let me tell you, I would sleep much better if I had the gift of actually believing that "these students should be reprimanded for their laziness, their incompetence and their refusal to learn what is being taught." If I knew, for a fact, that "these students have made voluntary choices to not make an effort to learn, to prioritize the wrong things in life, and to reject the education that my tax dollars and your tax dollars help pay for. There is *no* reason to show them sympathy -- they are wasting the resources we are providing them. " Some wisened observers have found a place that I envy -- a world in which needs no repair other than more enforcement of the rules, more lectures, and more punishment. A place where we can eagerly await the Darwin's next round of cuts, because those who don't make it deserve their fate. It's also fun because rather than actually learn about, research and contribute in some way to the repair of the problems, we could all just sit on a crackerjack basketball website and talk out of our asses. I would eat and sleep so much better. Hopefully someone will reprimand me for my desire to understand the complexities of the failure of public education beyond the personal shortcomings of the students and parents and teachers. I can't wait for the day that I believe they are all bad people getting what is coming to them. I would enjoy my new Honda Hybrid and iMac so much more if I could just reach that happy place. Actually driving a Honda Hybrid, CBFC
I don't think anyone is arguing that we shouldn't do anything. We are first figuring out what the problem is. If the children and teachers are doing everything they are supposed to do- studying, preparing, working hard, etc.- and they are still failing, the policy implications are much different than if it is a result of lazy students, parents who can't control them, and teachers who are not doing their jobs properly (for whatever reason). It isn't a question of who to demonize, it is a question of what the truth is and what to do about it. I still haven't gotten an answer to my original question- Are they studying??????
