Whoa, that's some pretty good spin. And a big LOL at the "change" you are talking about. Yup, let's just ignore the issues that we don't agree, and do the easy ones that we do agree. As a senator he can pick and choose what issues/bill he attaches his name to, as the president, not so much.
She's going to endorse on a Saturday? Senator Hillary Rodham Clinton will endorse Senator Barack Obama on Saturday, bringing a close to her 17-month campaign for the White House, aides said. Her decision came after Democrats urged her on Wednesday to leave the race and allow the party to coalesce around Mr. Obama. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/06/05/us/politics/04cnd-campaign.html?_r=1&hp&oref=slogin
She has predictably been as ungracious in this phase of the campaign as possible, refusing to even acknowledge defeat until her closest supporters started angrily defecting or threatening to. If there was any way at all for her to stay in longer you can bet she would. In the end, her own people forced her out.
From what I hear, this is true. Apparently some of Hillary's senior staff convinced 8 senators to come out today for Barack and tell her it's over.
That is an outright lie. The DNC and Team Obama's despicable, underhanded tactics forced her out. When you slice her wins in Florida and Michigan in half by fiat, then you have basically stolen the election by thuggery. If this were not the case, why are the hoardes of Hillary supporters working to put Hillary on the ballot as an Independent right now? Why are many of them mobilizing people and resources to support McCain? Her own people didn't force her out, that's hogwash. She was forced out by the Howard Dean cabal. Hardly any way to treat a politician that won more primary votes than any previous candidate.
ok, so let's count florida and michigan 100% for hillary. it's probably fair to say that means that "uncommitted" votes would probably go to obama since in essence, it's a non-vote for hillary. while we're at it, let's throw out the write-ins so we don't give obama credit for a distinct non-obama vote. we'll also not count the pro-obama advisory primaries... magic calculator says.... obama still wins by 50,000. what's the matter, TJ - you're sounding a bit scared... http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/06/final-popular-vote-estimates-obama-wins.html
^ so what should Jorge's signature be after Obama wins the general? Should I start a thread about it?
People, keep in mind 90% of what Jorge posts is sarcasm. It doesn't deserve an answer. He posts it so you guys will reply. Don't take the bait and derail realistic discussion.
It's not ignoring the issues that people don't agree on. It's about focusing first on what more people do agree on. That hasn't been done by other politicians in the past to a large degree. As President Obama can certainly set an agenda. He gets to choose the agenda he sets. Sure other things will come up that aren't part of that, but that doesn't change the agenda he can set. Back to the idea of unity and focusing on what people agree on... By doing that both sides view each other in a more civil manner, and see that while we have different ideas on how to make the country better we all do want the country to be better. By having worked together in a bi-partisan way there will have been good will generated that will both sides will better be able to tackle the issues where there is a great divide.
Again TJ comes out in favor of politicians setting an example for our youth that rules don't need to be followed. What kind of message are you trying to send?
We get it, Major. You hate Clinton. You hate the Clintons. So what are you going to vent about when she concedes on Saturday? Honestly, I'm worried about you. You've morphed from the cool, relatively disinterested political observer to rabid Obama supporter, tossing out as many rhetorical bombs about her as anyone else here, if not more. It's almost a Dr Jekyll/Mr. Hyde thing with you. I understand Batman's reactions during this primary campaign. He can't help but get dramatic at times. It's in his DNA. But you? I'm surprised. As someone who has been so politically astute so many times, to see you react as you have to this campaign has been an education for me. I'm beginning to realize you haven't seen as many political campaigns as I had assumed. Relax. Get over it. Not healthy for you, bro. Clinton will concede and her support from damn near half of the Democratic Party, in a primary campaign not like any other we've seen, will hopefully go to Barack Obama. And frankly, considering how you and Batman and a host of others have posted here about her, I can only hope that the vitriolic hate directed at her from Obama supporters is overlooked by that 49.9% that voted for her. 49.whatever percent who don't believe as you do. 49.whatever percent who are actual Democrats, which you are not. 49.whatever percent of Democrats who must have consumed 'the Kool-Aid" and were lost because of the astounding "charisma" displayed by Ms. Clinton. All those millions of Democrats who know in their hearts that Ms. Clinton doesn't give a damn about the political party she's devoted most of her life to, and simply cares about herself, in her greed. They all missed the memo. Really... there are moments where I stand back from the reality of having to read all these posts expressing their hatred for Hillary Clinton, and just have to laugh. Impeach Bush.
For what it's worth: 1. The announcement is now going to be on a Saturday - the least watched news cycle. 2. It won't be a joint appearance; the Obama team only found out about it from the media, and they say there are no plans right now for any joint appearances. So if her goal was visibility, she failed miserably - the opportunity for that was Tuesday. It's also worth noting that according to all media reports, she was badgered into conceding by her top supporters.
She was forced out by Pelosi's Pack and the Dean Cabal. The way she was treated was disgraceful. Anything BUT democratic. She won the popular vote, she won the battleground states, she was disproportionately hurt by the caucus structure, and she dominated him down the stretch. Take a re-vote today -- post Wright/Ayers/Farrakhan -- and Clinton slays him. She had her Florida and Michigan wins taken from her by fiat. What a disgrace.
LOL. So if I disagree, it's because I just don't know better. Nice. I hate dishonesty. I hate a lack of ethics. I have no loyalty to party, but the Dems are the party I support right now because of where Bush has taken the other party. My views on the Clintons are similar to both of ours on Bush - to me, they are virtually the same from a governing standpoint: powerhungry, think they are entitled to their own facts, lack of ethics, etc. I am far more interested in good, smart government than particular issues, so from that perspective, the Clintons are a disaster-in-waiting. I want them nowhere near a new administration; my support for Obama is based on getting a fresh start with smart people. That's why I love this race - both candidates (Obama/McCain) are far superior to most of the crap we've had in recent history (Gore might be an exception). I don't attack the Clintons any more vehemently than you defend them. So don't pull the "you sound crazy" angle. I've followed plenty of campaigns - there's a wide difference between a hard-nosed campaign and an unethical one and she crosses back and forth. For example, her team's ability to spin is phenomenal and let them stay in this for a long time - and not a bad thing. Her team's choice to make up their own facts is unethical. Her team's choice to subtly merge her message with McCain's was ridiculous. Strangely, you act like it's only crazy Obama people that see this stuff - but it's simply not. I post article after article of people who see the exact same things - from all sides of the political spectrum. And articles explaining exactly why these things are over the line. In this most recent case, half the articles were from Clinton supporters! The Clinton supporters here just keep saying how it's all normal - but no one actually posts any evidence of such. When the entire party thinks what you did is wrong, including her own top people, I find it funny that people here say the same as they say for anything - that it's reasonable and expected. Yeah, it's all Obama supporters that are throwing around vitriol. I mean, the Clinton supporter outside the DNC meeting calling Obama a murderer was just cool. The "Denver" chants or the "McCain" chants at a DNC meeting? All perfectly normal, right? I mean, that's just how campaigns are, according to you. I've never suggested that Clinton supporters should or need to jump on board with Obama - they can vote how they want. I just don't want Obama saddling his administration with the Clintons in order to win them over. It might be harder to win, but the resulting government will be a hell of a lot better. It's worth the risk. But if all of Clinton's actions make that reconciliation harder - even her own supporters are admitting this and complaining to her - don't sit here and pretend that her loyalty is to the party. She's either really stupid and doesn't realize it (which we know she's not) or she's powerhungry and focused on that - you simply need to accept that or provide an alternative explanation that makes sense. Not surprising. I do the same with people that defend anything Clinton does and just say "oh it's what everyone does" despite all the evidence to the contrary.
Odd, given that the GOP imposed the exact same penalty on FL/MI that the DNC now has. And the GOP didn't even go up in arms about it - I guess they are OK with fiat? Take a revote today and Obama blows her out by 10 points in California according to the most recent poll. He wins far more support across Super Tuesday due to his additional name recognition. The last few Gallup/Rasmussen tracking polls show him up consistently by 8-10 pts nationally. So if you had a new election today, instead of winning 49.5-49.3 or whatever, he wins 54-46. Including Michigan and Florida. Nice try though. You'd think after 5 months, you'd have learned how a primary works. You appear to know just as little as you did back in January where you didn't even know about proportional delegation.
Can you link me to where the Obama team only found out about it from the media, as well as being badgered into conceding? Not that I don't believe either, but I'd like to see it. Thanks.
now i'm not saying that hillary is doing the right thing. in fact, i find her lack of grace despicable, if understandable. but ultimately this may be a good thing. yes, this is an historic moment, and yes, she is stealing his thunder, but i think we could all use a timeout. let's make sure hope is not obfuscated by hype. obama will win on the merits of his agenda, i think it's best if it plays out this way rather than some tidal wave of unreachable expectations.
Sure, here's the media thing: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/06/05/obama-found-out-clinton-w_n_105393.html (originally from Politico) Here's the badgering thing: http://www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/0608/ABC_Clinton_to_drop_out_Friday.html The relevant part is: Clinton had convened a conference call with congressional supporters Wednesday to plead for time. Instead, a Clinton backer said, her supporters laid down the law: Time had run out , and she needed to leave the race this week.
