Lance Berkman demonstrated that he had fantastic talent, and had demonstrated that talent throughout the minors, and previous to his breakout year, he had hit well in the majors - he was also several years younger than Winn is now. Berkman, Ward, and Hidalgo have all demonstrated that they had the talent to be more than 4th outfielders, Randy Winn has never done this. Oh, and they're all younger than Winn too. Randy Winn has been a solid 4th OF his entire career, except this fluke season. He's not going to give us production that we couldn't get from Hunter, Wesson, Merced or Lane - and we can use those guys w/o having to give up anyone. P.S. - Kirk Saarloos had another strong outing tonight, frankly, he's got more talent than anyone else in that proposed deal(Winn, Wilson, Ward). We should get someone better than Randy Winn if we trade Ward - and we should probably never trade Saarloos.
Oh yeah...I think outfield and I think Fat Ward. You just flushed your own point down the toilet with that one. Wesson and Lane have never been up here for more than a few days, so you don't know what they can or can't do. Merced cannot play everyday at this point in his career. I'm happy with the way he's played, but everyday would cause his body to break down. Hunter???? Hunter???? Are you KIDDING???!!!! That guy will NEVER hit .322 for a week...much less a season. So you've given me no real better answers. FINALLY we agree on something. I think we can make the deal by giving a pitching prospect other than Saarloos.
Daryl Ward has demonstrated that he at least had the talent to be a regular member of the lineup - Randy Winn, up till this year, has never demonstrated anything approaching the talent. They don't have to give us good production, because, as I said earlier, I believe Winn's season thus far is a massive fluke, and he will return to his poor production of the past. Thus, these guys won't have to do to much to match Winn. I don't think Randy Winn is the answer to any of the Astro's question's. If you wanted to trade for Randy to get a pretty good 4th outfielder, who can make the occassional effective spot-start, I have no problem with that. But if this team makes Randy Winn a starter, its essentially raising a giant flag that it cannot contend for the playoffs.
Puedlfor, this is only the 3rd year that Winn is getting extensive playing time. He is still relatively new to the game. You said earlier that if the Astros need a CF, it should be a good leadoff hitter. Well, this just in, there arent many lead off hitters that are good CF. Winn is one of the better options there. I have a question for you. You insist that the is a one year fluke for Winn, correct? But, you also want to hold on to the one year wonder in Hidalgo. Arent you contradicting yourself? You want players that have proven year after year that they can contribute, but you still want to hold on to the guys on the roster. Doesnt make much sense. Also, the major point in making a trade right BEFORE the deadline is to make a move for the playoffs. Usually teams do not make a trade at this time to help themselves out 5 years down the line. Those kind of transactions take place in the offseason. If Winn is a 1 year wonder, then at least we had him to help us push for the playoffs THIS year. If he sucks next year, well, at least he only makes $960,000. Lots better than the 8 million that Hidalgo is demanding.
We don't have the ability to get rid of Hidalgo, because of his contract, unless we traded him for a career minor leaguer, like the Blue Jays did with Mondesi. I don't think thats fair value for him, so I believe the Astros might as well hold on to him to see if he returns to that 2000 form. Its not that I'm a massive fan of Mr. Hidalgo, but we're stuck with him,.
Not true. The Astros are expected to put hidalgo on waivers in August. Why not trade him now instead of get less for him later. Either way, it looks like he's gone.
Well this is my theory: If we were going to trade Hidalgo, we probably would have played him at least a couple of times in the last 6 game hoping that he would break out of his slump & have some trade value. Since we didn't do that I doubt that we are gonna trade him. For the record, I'm not too sure if the whole sore wrist thing is for real. IMHO, that is a coverup for the benching. I could be totally wrong but that is what I think. Anyway, I think tonight would have been a great PH oppertunity for Dawgie. No pressure, we are up by 13 runs, just let him get a couple of swings in and rest Merced for the last couple of innings. But who knows what Jimy was thinking.
Refman, Teams are going to let Hidalgo clear waivers if we put him on there. They don't want his contract, either Oh and by the way pued is dead on about Winn, the guys career OPS is .707 before this year and Players do not just breakout at age 28, 3 or 4 years from earning a starting role. I watch a lot of Baseball, Randy Winn, has always been a good backup outfielder, not a guy I want playing a major role on a contending team longterm. Especially not for a good young pitcher and good young bat.
I respectfully submit that you have not watched any more baseball than I have from 1980 to the present. Winn is a lifetime .281 hitter. That is a respectable average for a leadoff guy. Is Winn my first choice? No. But anybody better than Winn is not available. Winn currently is the most bang for the buck. Hidalgo will never be the player we thought he was going to be, and Ward has become a complete embarrassment. If we could unload one of them for Winn I do it in a heartbeat. It certainly would be a big defensive upgrade, and that is an area where this team needs help.
Im going to keep saying this. Refman was right on the money when he said Winn is the best bang for the buck. He will be making under a million for the next 3 seasons. He is the best available leadoff hitter out there. He is also a defensive upgrade. Its worth the risk because Ward and Hidalgo are basically worthless so far this season.
I wouldn't say worthless, but definitely a HUGE disappointment given our expectations for them. They will never live up to what we thought they were. But we totally agree on Randy Winn. Personally, I think he will hit right around .300 over the next several seasons. For a leadoff man, I'll take it!
Refman, How much improvement do you think Winn means in wins and losses if we trade Ward or Hidalgo to get him. I'd venture it MAY be one or two. Randy Winn has been a NOTHING until this year out of the blue he produces. And his ceiling is very limited. Sorry, but I'll take DWard and his power, and damn he is fat but he has not played a horrible left field this year. And his bat more than makes up for it. Same with Hidalgo, the guy is a very good defensive rightfielder can hit .270-.280 with 25-30 hr's a year. Winn is not near the player he is. If this was a proven leadoff man, like Lofton this is a bit different. Although, I likely dont give up this much for him either. However look at the price of Lofton(two decent minor leaguers). And you guys want to give Tampa a good 30 hr 1b/dh, and a good young pitcher for two guys they have no intention of building around when the market value is less? That's not smart. Btw, the astros can make the postseason as is, and in the playoffs its a crapshoot and I'll stack Oswalt/Miller up against most teams. I also don't want to deal just to deal. Now you want to know who I'd like to get. Cruz, Jr in Toronto. He grew up in bellaire, has good power and speed, and Cheo is our first base coach. Shannon Stewart would be even nicer but I doubt Riccardi moves him. I just dont care to deal for very likely one hit wonders, and thats how I view Winn.
At this point, one or two may be the difference between the Astros playing ball in October and going fishing. If what he is doing RIGHT NOW is his ceiling, then it is good enough to be a bona fide leadoff man. THAT is what this team needs, not to mention a REAL CF. This season here are the stats: Ward: 8 HRs, .267 avg, .320 OBP Hidalgo: 14 HRs .249 avg, .331 OBP Winn: 8 HRs .322 avg .371 OBP Winn has just as many homers as Ward, and a better average and OBP than EITHER Ward OR Hidalgo. Will the power numbers continue to be the same? No, but we need a CF that hits for average, and his average will be higher than Ward's. Not true...see above.
I don't mind getting Winn. But not at the price people are suggesting. Also, my biggest problem with Winn is he has done nothing 3 years starting in Tampa until now. I have a real hard time believing he can be a longterm solution.
If you are opposed to parting with Hidalgo or Ward then we simply don't agree. I am NOT willing to part with Saarloos at this point unless it is a blockbuster of Roger Clemons 1998 proportions. I'd make the deal with Tampa Bay if we could send a prospect or Munro instead of Saarloos.
I'm not in favor of trading Saarloos either. I'd do Redding / Ward or Hidalgo (or both, for all I care) and a prospect for him though. Players have breakthrough years all the time several years into their careers. You take the chance that maybe this is his.
I'm gonna laugh when we bring Randy Winn over here and he sucks. Remember when we thought that Roger Cedeno would be the answer? I feel like this is the same situation. In Ward, you're trading a proven power hitter, who will break out any day now. He was the #1 prospect in our organization two years ago, and now you want to dump him for some one-year wonder? He may be fat, but he can flat out hit. Ya'll are giving up on Ward too quickly. Also, the Saarloos kid looked good last night too. That's three straight wins, and you want to trade him? The guy's earned a spot in the rotation. I could see wanting to do a swap of Ward for Cliff Floyd straight up, but the time for that has passed. Also, I wouldn't mind trading Ward for an ace in Bartolo Colon. But to deal him for a guy nobody heard of until the All Star game is stupid.
you can use a lot of words for Darryl Ward...."PROVEN" isn't one of them unless you're describing him as a poor fielder or a slow baserunner! When exactly did he prove himself to be a power hitter on the major league level? Proven??? Flat out hit???? When??? We're still waiting....his OBP is a joke for a guy who can "flat out hit." We have enough fat slow guys who look like they can mash on paper but don't....i'd be willing to trade one of those beer-league softball boys for a guy who can field his position and hit at the top of the order with some consistency. I'm not willing to give up Saarloos, though, despite the fact he needs to spin the wheel and ask Vanna to insert some more consonants (sp?) in his last name.
"The Tampa Bay Devil Rays have made it clear that all of their players are available, and righthander Esteban Yan has impressed Astros scouts." Houston Chronicle If this is true, and we have no way of knowing, forget Randy Winn. I'd trade anyone in the 'Stros system, or a combination thereof, for Carl Crawford. Not sure why the D-Rays would want to get rid of him though.
Go back and actually READ my post and Major's post. BOTH of us say that we don't want to trade Saarloos. Well said Max. Sure he had 20 homers last year in limited playing time...but according to somebody on this BBS players can have a fluke year. That was Fat Ward's.
