Agree there is probably no way to debate on why something is considered a sin and something isn't. You're right we're talking apples and oranges. Also thank you for the courtesy. A lot of people talk about the D & D being nothing but mudslinging we, and I mean pretty much everyone that has participated on this thread, have had a very civil debate over an incredibly controversial topic.
the intention was to say that in many sexual areas be it prostitution, pedophilia, adultery, homosexuality, bondage, wife swapping, beastiality, etc there is a sense that consent and love are the only factors to consider. Wife swapping for instance could fall into the category of two loving couples by consent. I personally do not find that this makes it a healthy and right sexual behavior. The fact that people agree to it (consent) and find caring love in such behavior does not always reveal realities that are taking place. grouping love and sex as the same is a tragic misunderstanding of love and a confusion of the relationships between sex, lust. self control, the role of infants and children and sex; and the importance of personal character and righteousness. The idea that if I have a tendency it is right is also not fully thought out in society. Tendencies can be right and wrong and like character and personal habits should be responsibly directed and disciplined. Also that genetics play a part in any of these types of behavior is over simplifying the realities of how we mature in personal character. I am not saying that a homosexual and a pedophile are 'same' issues at all. My point all along is that the complex issues involving these behaviors are probably not solved by bashing the people. And the reasons that I would consider them to be hurtful and destructive is also complex and not easily shared in a D&D thread. I consider small children, the design of a loving father and mother, loving parenting, the right way to love and nuture children towards personal maturity and responsible character, self worth, value and love and I also consider the tragedies encountered in the lifestyles of these sexual behaviors, along with the scriptural references to God's will in each case. For me it oversimplifies it just to state 'God says homosexuality is a sin', without dealing at a heart level where love and truth find common ground. I've seen ample confirmation in Pastoral ministry and experiences I have found that at the heart level these behaviors are hurtful. Again I would not for a moment find hating a homosexual any more right than hating a liar or a thief. I have never 'preached' a sermon against homosexuality. I do not know for sure if that is a fault or a virtue. I believe it is a wrong behavior with complicated causes. Again I trust this is not harsh. For the homosexual who might be reading this- I understand the caring and compassion felt in relationship and also have a small experience with the pain that often lies in the heart. I have talked to many homosexuals about God and I don't remember addressing a homosexual any different than a heterosexual. When explaining God's message of salvation there are plenty of sins in man's heart to be saved of, I don't believe hitting a homosexual with a Bible is what Jesus had in mind- at least I don't recall Him doing it. Thanks for the civility.
It seems to me that you are comparing and placing homosexuality in a category of questionable sexual behaviors which it need not be. I don't think this is a proper categorization to lump homosexuality with wife swapping and adultery since there is a legal title between man and wife. The only thing keeping a legal title between two homosexual partners is the law as currently written and homosexuals have themselves asked for such partnership. Further knowing some homosexual couples I know they can be as faithful or unfaithful to each other as heterosexual couples. You're setting up a slippery slope which need not be there. True sex should be considered an expression of love but how do you know that two people of the same gender aren't in love but are only acting out of lust? Someone attracted to someone who is of the same gender may be feeling as deep of a love as someone of an opposite gender and wish to express that love through the sexual act. At the same time attraction between the opposite genders is just as likely to be about lust than love. As far as the role of infants and children the argument generally brought up is that homosexual couples can never have children. True they cannot but a lot of heterosexual couples can't either. Many homosexual couples want to adopt though and given concerns about abortion or children being stuck in foster care why not make more loving homes available to children who are unwanted or abandoned by their biological parents? Also that genetics play a part in any of these types of behavior is over simplifying the realities of how we mature in personal character.[/quote] True again also but then you're making the apriori assumption that homosexuality is wrong and a character flaw so it isn't right. Whether intentional though you are since you are considering homsexuality as a character flaw and abuse of sexuality are citing pedophilia as a character flaw and abuse of sexuality. Agreed and I might not be able to change your mind, or you mine, but am offering rational dissagreements and asking you to examine your views. As I said I can't argue against whether homosexuality is a sin and not-being a Christian it would be presumptiuous and arrogant of me to tell Christians what is and isn't sin. What I can say though is that while in your experience you've seen homosexual behavior hurtful let me ask you have you encountered homosexuals in loving and commited relationships? For that matter have you found heterosexual behavior to be hurtful? As always with respect. Its much easier to be civil when the person you debate with is civil also.
Placing it in a category of questionable sexual behaviors is where the discussion is centered- if there was no question then no need to compare. How behaviors are viewed depends upon who is viewing. I don't think I stretched the list to say that homosexual behavior is still questioned. I didn't say that homosexual sex was not an expression of love I said that the difference between love, sex and lust is significant. Love considers much more than the mutual consent of those involved- where sex and lust do not. Love itself is unselfish, benevolent and righteous by definition. Lust is lust whether it is heterosexual or homosexual, no denying that. I understand that sex between partners could be because of love or lust (regardless of behavior). Did you consider that an expression of love is not always right? An adult feeling deep love for a child, which I do, does not in any way engender me towards sex or lust. The point of love for a Christian is to love God supremely and others equal to yourself. From the point of loving God obviously a Bible view of behavior is needed. From the point of loving others it takes a careful examination of how God wants each of us to be treated and what His design for us is. For me the issues regarding children have little to do with a couples ability to procreate. The issue has to do with the value of being nutured by a loving father and a loving mother. This is again a design issure for a Christian. Depending on how much value you place on God's design for a Father and a Mother will determine your value of a heterosexual orientation for the family unit. A loving home is not determined just by how much the parents or care takers want a child, or how much they 'love' each other. There are reasons that procreation is between man and a woman. If you feel that the significance of either father or mother is less than it really is you will not be able to see this perspective. Raising healthy, loving, mature, responsible, and virtuous children is no small job. Heterosexuals often fail miserably. But what is best for a child should not be determined by how much heterosexuals fail or how 'caring and loving' a homosexual relationship might appear. The value of a father and mother is very important in my opinion. While this is not the primary reason I would say that homosexual sex is wrong, it is a factor and it is an illustration of how little sacrifice is made for the good of children. I just said that it should be obvious that genetic factors in personal character development historically are meaningless. If genetics determined how responsible, loving, truthful, diligent, forgiving, humble, thorough, dependable, honest, and virtuous a person is then groups like the Nazis were on track. I would not characterize homosexuality as a character flaw. I would say that our character is developed from how we mature in our heart and how we respond to truth. People handle character flaws different ways and we all have character flaws. What I am saying is that behavior is directly related to the condition of our heart, our character and our choices. Often the pain in someones heart is a motivation for different expressions of emotion, even affecting compulsive behaviors, a personal self worth/value, and people often compensate for inner pain with coping mechanisms. I have seen deep pain result in addictive behavior, pride, rejection of relationships, bitterness, and often religious fervency. If you asked me if inner freedom and inner pain can both be expressed as love I would say yes with qualification. Freedom is having the inner power to do what is right- resulting in a disinterested or unselfish love. Pain is the hurt that is like a wounding that results in self focus and self-centered relationships. I couldn't agree more that ultimately I am going to carefully examine the Bible on this issue and try to understand from that perspective. I have seen plenty of hurt and destruction in almost every kind of relationship. All the more reason for me to point people to love, God's will and His design for life.
