Wow, I wish I knew what this post said. If you mean the only lineup that matters is the one at the end of the game, I can agree; problem is usually that's the same as the starting lineup.
For those still looking for a banger in the paint, I have definitely found the one man who has banged in probably more places. I don't know how well he'd fit on the Rockets but the man has definitely banged.
sorry if this came on too strong. what i mean is i hate ppl keep saying some unrealistic things like how battier is gonna start as our PF and keep argueing about this stupid subjet. tat ain't gonna happen ppl. hes too small against most PFs. howard is not as terrible as ppl think; most ppl here are just over cynical. the thing with him is hes a great professional and work hard. anyways, back to battier. he might finish a game for us and tats wht i mean by stressing the importance of finishing lineup. For example, if we signed mike james, he will likely finish the game for us but not start for us. take 6th man of the yr last yr mike miller, he finish most of his games for the grizziles even though he is not starting. theres got to be a balance between the starting guys and the bench guys. for the rockets, howard likely isn't gonna be a finisher but a starter. depending on matchups i think luther is likely gonna finish the game for us in place of howard. v-span might hav a shot as well, i guess depends on how his freakish speed can apply to our system and the nba. (really hope he can be like a tony parker...)
As to Battier playing an undersized 4; the teams that gave Yao Ming the biggest problems defensivly were the teams that played a fronting defense, not the teams with the largest/tallest center. They couldn't stop Yao Ming once he had the ball, so they kept him from getting it where he wanted it. I think that is what is what Battier at the 4 will do. It won't be a one-on-one stop. Instead, disrupt the the flow of the designed offense, and make them go to plan B. That is what JVG's defensive philosophy is - make them go to something oither than their best paly.
I think this is an important point that too few people seem to be acknowledging in this discussion. It's less a question of how well Battier can play the 4, and more a question of how does he best complement/serve the team. Ya he's probably better than Juwon, but we need a guy who is going to provide shot blocking help along side Yao. Think about the big picture here.... The new handchecking rules make it even harder on perimeter defenders and this will increase the number of quick guards getting into the lane. If Yao is our only real force in the post, it's hard to see him NOT getting in foul trouble more and more as players & teams adjust to take advantage of the new rules and attack our bigs(especially after watching D-Wade carry his team this way). Yao is a decent shot blocker but he isn't instinctive and he tends to get himself in trouble trying to block shots of some of the more athletic players in the league. That's a big reason why he was slow to become effective in the league as he was always toying with foul trouble. He has gotten better, but we really need a solid post guy down there with him to help lessen his enforcing in the paint because Yao is even MORE valuable to us offensively because it opens up everyone's game. Having a decent shooter like Battier to stretch the defenses means nothing if Yao is sitting on the bench in foul trouble. a shooter like Tmac picking apart defenses when teams are forced to decide if they want to key on Yao or him? Pointless if Yao is on the bench. A good PG to deliver the ball to the low post? Means nothing without Yao.... This entire team was built for Yao so you MUST tell yourself when evaluating roster moves - if it's good for Yao, it's good for the team.
See just like the poster, Ronny, and some others about Battier to the 4, I'd again agree with you. But fact is Ronny, me, nor you are the coach. It's Van Gundy, he's NOT going to start Battier at the 4, he won't see time at the 4 in heavy minutes, it's just spurs and for certain matchups. Let's get that straight, Jeff is our coach, he's not going to bust out something completely contrasting to his conventional style. He's sticking with Battier on the best perimeter player, McGrady on the worst, screw SF or SG. It's defensive matchups, Juwan is our starting PF, Chuck will see time there, too.
I never said Battier can't be a good PF. I am quite sure he can't be a very good backup center. In fact, the only guys on our current roster who can play backup center are Mutombo and Howard. That worries me a lot.
I don't think we're gonna be a bad rebounding team. Tmac is pretty much an above average sf with like 7 rpg. yao will chip in with hopefully 10 now that we have an undersized battier as a pf. all our guys hustle as hell so we don't have to worry about rebounding! forgot to mention sura is a good rebounder as well if he comes back.
Except when the Spurs get to the playoffs or close out games, where the last few years Duncan plays more minutes at the 4 than the 5. So unless Elson or Butler are better than Nazr and Rasha--fat chance (considering neither of their former teams cared enough to match small-modest contracts) but you never know how they will turn out, when the Spurs try to really win they will have Duncan playing the 5 and shooter like Horry/Bonner to spread the floor. So against the playoff Spurs team, Mavs or Suns--the power of the West, I am pretty sure Battier will be our primary 4. Battier seems as reasonable player as any to play on Dirk (seeing as how guys like Haslem, Posey, Bruce Bowen, Marion, Diaw fare better than others). Bigger slower players Dirk kills even more. Against Duncan, there is no player that can contain him one on one. But Battier plus a double (and we have a much quicker doubling/rotating team with Battier at the 4) seems like a reasonable approach. Further, if the Spurs resort to Duncan at the 4 and some scrub at the 5 (and they might just to keep Duncan off of Yao), then you have to ask is Duncan vs Battier (and help) worse than Yao vs scrub C (and help). If the answer is Yao vs scrub center doesn't do as much damage as Duncan vs Battier, than we are not ready to beat them no matter what else happens. You have to think of not just the match-up problem you have, but what you create for the other team. Very well put. People sems to want a 6'9'+ 240lbs+ PF who can defend, rebound, block and stick the 18 footer. I am all ears for getting this player (I am guessing there are like 5 of them in the league) while not trading Yao or Tmac. Shane Battier does not solve the problem you mention. He isn't super quick, let alone as quick as Artest or Bowen. IMO he is better off playing Dirk or KG or Odom than he is playing superquick swingmen like Wade or Iverson or Terry. Think of it this way, if Tay Prince had to be taken off Wade and even Manu because he wasn't quick enough, Battier sure isn't quick enough either. But Battier can be a great answer to the combo forward who is very quick for a 6'9" guy. This is why we need Snyder, Head or some other SG with quickness. Battier is a great match-up with your big swingmen or tweener/athletic/perimeter 4s (Dirk, Josh Howard, Diaw, Marion, Horry, Sheed, Walker, Haslem) so common in todays elite teams--this is a principle reason why we traded for him IMO. But Battier is not the answer for the super quick more athletic swingman (Wade and Wade lites). Snyder or Head or Tmac or someone else is going to be a better shot there. 1st, I think a major reason we pulled the trade was because we felt for most of the time, particularly against the more athletic teams at the top of the NBA, Battier makes a more complimentary PF than Howard or Swift. In fact I think we think he is substantially better than Swift as a PF (Swift by the way has the shot blocking and many other attributes those for getting another 4 seem to want), enough to have Rudy Gay in the deal. I think your second part of the your logic is correct. Part of the thinking with Battier is relieving defensive pressure of Tmac and even Yao to some extent. In Tmac's case, with Battier at the 4 and Snyder or another quick player at the 2, he can essentially always draw the easiest defensive match-up 2 through 4. If KVH or Horry is the 4, Tmac takes them. If Bruce Bowen is the 3, Tmac plays him. If Raja Bell or Brent Barry play the 2 Tmac plays him. Battier also helps Yao. Now the athlketic PFs that used to kill Swift or Howard off the dribble and force fouls on Yao, guys like Dirk, Marion, Diaw, Odom, AK47, Jamison, KG, Bosh, Howard, or going to have a much harder time getting clear to the basket. So in summary, with Battier at the 4 and Snyder (or preferrably another big/quick guard) at the 2, Tmac will get the easiest draw among 3 positions, and also we protect Yao by having more fewer open lanes to the rim and better quicker roations.
I have no problem matching him with the likes of Odom, and Dirk. KG is a bit of a problem, he's not a banger, but Battier isn't getting any rebounds over him. At least Juwan could box him out. I would rather see Snyder off the bench because he'll give our team a lot more flexibility and solve matchup problems for teams that like to switch up their line-up mid-game. Luther Head is there to take care of dudes like Jason Terry, Devin Harris, Barbosa, and Mike James. Big swingmen - yes Perimeter 4's - yes Dirk, Howard, Diaw, Marion - thats only 8 games If I consider Sheed and Haslem an athletic 4/big swingman, hell no If these supposed to know-it-all Rockets fans are looking at 82 games rather than 8 and looking at Duncan, Jermaine, Bosh, D. Howard, Brand, P. Gasol, Webber, Sheed, Boozer, Okafur, Z. Randolph. - NO!!!
this post makes me believe in battier just a little bit more. he won't be an all-star PF, but he could get the job done. i still think he's better suited for the SF role, but i totally see your point and can envision him playing at the 4. nicely done.
Desert Scar, at the end of games, i agree with you - tim will play more 5 than 4. what i was responding to were thoughts that tim will play the majority of his minutes at the 5. that will NOT happen. at least not regular season. pop has made it abundantly clear that he won't put tim in jeapordy of foul trouble by putting him at the 5. as an aside, that's why i loved and respected "dream" so much. he'd gladly cover the opposition's best post player(s), shut him/them down, then light him/them up like a xmas tree.
This is true, but I think it will be more important when T-Mac goes to the bench were you'll see: Ming Howard Battier Head V-span as opposed to last season were our depth stunk to high heaven.
Well I choose the Mavs, Suns and Spurs because these are the teams we have to beat, and I believe the teams we are gunning for when we sprung for Battier. And unless one of the Spurs young unproven (and largely unwanted) centers they brought in become decent a NBA center--which is not very likely--Battier at the PF most of the time makes the most sense. It best preserves our match-up advantages and covering more of our disadvantages over playing Howard or any other reasonably attainable big in our PF. Look at the PFs who will be playing from last year's playoffs teams: WC-- Dirk, Marion/Diaw, Horry/Duncan, Brand, Odom, Kmart, KT/SAR, Gasol. EC--Haslem/Walker, Sheed, Gooden, Krystic, Jamison, Villanuevo, J Oneal/Harrington, PJBown/Thomas. There are very few players Battier isn't a better alternative to play than Howard, or any other PF we could reasonably obtain without trading Yao or Tmac for. Brand is a problem, particularly because the Clips have a decent center paired with him. Oneal, Gasol and Duncan would also be huge problems for Battier, but their teams are better having them play the 5. If they want to put some scrubby offensively inept center in there just so we have to play Howard at the 4, Battier at the 3, and Tmac at the 2--all the power to them. For these traditional beefy PFs the best you can do is give Howard and Hayes extra minutes at the 4 (along with Battier) to make them work and see different looks, plus of course help with doubles. Of course with Battier at the 4 our whole teams is faster and better able to double and rotate. So if Battier and Howard are only *even* in a 1 on 1 match-up (say versus KG or Duncan where they both have no chance) the team defense is better with Battier. In short, particularly in the elite teams, few teams have that traditional power 4 (Karl Malone lite types) that Battier is simply too small for, and even fewer of them have a good enough center to let them play the majority of their minutes at PF. I really don't feel bad with Battier as the highest minute PF, and think he will be, with Howard and Hayes providing major support. To me the front court is pretty set, with average minutes like: C: Yao (34), Deke (8), Howard (6) PF: Battier (22), Howard (16), Hayes (10) SF: Tmac (35), Battier (10), Snyder or Novak or Abuz or RyBo (3) Of course these are just averages. Some days you need more Deke and Hayes for defense and rebounding, and some days you need more bench O or size/bulk at the 4 (i.e., Howard) when you encounter your teams with tough power PFs and Cs like the Clips. Now ask me what the backcourt will look like and I have no idea. I think all roles and minutes will be auditioned for. Right now I think the key is Snyder fitting in, if this happens a lot of things all fall into place. I would say 3 months into the season even Rafer is only 50/50 to be starting with VSpan, Head or JL3 all having a chance.
Let's face it, folks... we were spoiled. We'll forever be comparing 5s, and 4s, to Hakeem when it comes to post play, and in most instances, the other player will be found lacking. Severely lacking. And we often had decent, or better than decent 4s to play beside him. Now we're looking at having, based on last season after the break, a breakout year for our all star center. We have one of the best all around players in the NBA playing with him, and we have one good player in search of a position on the team in Battier, Mr. Jack of All Trades, and master of none. Short of making a trade, still a possibilty, who do we have to start at the 4? Over the hill Howard, who should be playing "off the bench minutes" in the rotation? Hayes, who has little experience, some possibilities, a nose for a rebound, and what else? Still looking to find out. And we have Battier. In my opinion, we just don't have a choice, short of CD making a move, but to give Battier the majority of his minutes at the 4. Is it ideal? Hell no, but what else can we do? Perhaps we'll feel our way to a good rotation at the spot during the season, which is obviously what we're going to do. Unless Hayes is an amazing surprise, or Howard comes back from the dead, Battier will see the majority of the minutes there, IMO.
sure looks that way. offensively, i think it'll work wonderfully. defensively, however, it's going to require a supreme effort from the team to cover for the posting 4 spot.
You answered your own question. It is size. Just like when everyone thought K9 was the odd man out at PF because he was the smallest. And sure enough, he was the odd man out because he was the one who got traded. Or maybe he got traded because he was the only one that other teams want. quite a head scratcher. ok, back to subject. bottomline is that there is never anything wrong with starting your 5 best players. And there is nothing wrong with having one of those 5 best players be the 6th man off the bench. so, who strikes me as being the better 6th man between Battier and Howard. Howard. But, having Howard be a 6th man off the bench for 2nd q instant offense, means we are starting who at SG...Snyder? I'm hoping Snyder will become an NBA starter....but I'm going with Battier and Howard over him, which means Battier is not starting as a PF. Can Battier play PF for certain stretches. Why not. Small ball is working in the NBA now. Why not. On all your points, I agree that Battier can play PF. I just don't think he will start there, unless Snyder surprises the f out of me.
