I'm bothered that he didn't tell the whole truth to begin with especially when some were falling all over themselves to praise him for admitting to the use. I certainly don't know whether Andy's told us everything, but I'm certainly not willing to give him the benefit of the doubt anymore. Sounds like he's just admitting to stuff after people find out about it. Who knows what else he'll admit to once all the stones are turned. He's no better than Clemens or McNamee at this point in the lying department, IMO. I'm certainly not willing to praise him for coming clean about things after he's been caught.
What I think about Clemens is my own gut feel. However, when I step back and look at the situation objectively, I recognize there's a chance he's telling the truth because his story has stayed (relatively) the same, whereas Pettitte's story is a constant game of minimizing the damage and revealing a little bit more. I don't give credit to Roger. But I'm willing to keep an open mind and defer final judgment on this because neither side has proven its case. At this point, I don't think it's fair to bury Roger through Andy's words and assume Andy's speaking the truth.
I think you are holding Pettite to a pretty high standard. Let me know next time anyone comes out and admits a wrongdoing before they are confronted. The important thing to me was, once the report came out, he owned up to it, and I can respect him for that, while at the same time not respecting the fact he did it or not admitted it at the time.
To me, it's the high standard he sets upon himself by mentioning Jesus in every other sentence and telling the world that God wanted him New York, among other things. And as for owning up to it when the report came out, that's exactly the point - he didn't! It took him two months and suddenly he remembered a time he used in 2004. I hope he's telling the truth. But his credibility here is minimal, and to praise him as the committee and media have is to ignore the evidence.
I feel I can look at it objectively too. I've not cared much about Clemens to the good or bad while he has been in the MLB. I obviously loved what he did for the Stros, but am I not one to get latched onto athletes that I root for. Objectively, I feel Roger is lying and can't own up to the truth mainly, because he has been in a position his whole career where he has been rarely humbled. Call it ego or whatever, but Clemens answers to no one but himself, as many of us do. Others have others to answer too. IMO, that is the difference between Pettite & Clemens. As Andy said, he answers to God first and despite what any of us feel about religion, those of us (not me specifically) who are deeply religious, can sympathize with the plight. If you can't EVER believe a man when he speaks the truth because he once did not, then you can never believe anyone at any time, because everyone has lied in their lives @ one time or another. Ultimately, you are right, no one has proved their case, at least, beyond a reasonable doubt. However, with the HGH/wife thing, Knoblauch and Pettitte confirmed McNamee's accounts of them, and the Pettitte account of Roger telling him he took HGH, I believe Clemens' looks less than honest here. Even if he commendable for sticking to his story, no matter how many holes it has in it.
ESPN does it again. Whoever the anchor on ESPNEWS is, speaking with Jerry Crasnick to get his insight on Pettitte, randomly throws in this little nugget toward the end... "He sure does seem like a likeable, honest fellow." How difficult is this? Be objective. Stop looking at his personality. Stop looking at the Bible he carries around with him. Stop speaking in irrelevant superficialities. Look at the evidence. I don't think it shows a pattern of likeability or honesty here.
It was also pretty bad when members of the committee were thanking Clemens for his Yankees tenure and telling him he'll go to heaven. I don't think Andy deserves a free pass - I just think it pales in comparison to what Roger is doing. Roger never said Andy lied - just "misremembered" that Clemens' wife was doing HGH, not him - even though Hardin called McNamee a disgusting individual for bringing up false claims like he injected Mrs. Clemens as well. McNamee injected Mrs. Clemens, Andy, Chuck K... but not Roger. Roger was the only one he lied about? To me it's pretty clear why the public favors Andy over Roger.
And then he owned up to that. Again, show me a person who owned up to the whole truth, from day one, without being confronted with any evidence.
Oh COME ON !!!! Lying to the press is not equal to lying under oath, and you of all people should know that. Anyone would lie about taking HGH/Steroids to the press....but lying under oath...that is a whole different level. Andy at least came clean......his buddy Roger still doesn't realize that Denial is not just a river in Africa. DD
Mantle was very candid about it, and his speed use's effect on his alcoholism: he'd get amped up for the games, and have to drink so he could come down & sleep, and wake up the next day & get amped up for the game, and drink after....
No question about it, Codell. I'm not putting that kind of burden on him. But THIS WAS his coming clean session. When he told us we were getting the truth...that he wasn't going to hide behind lies. No more lies!! Time to be forthcoming. And then he lied through his teeth. Blatantly. "I only used twice..." I can't understand all the "what a great guy" sentiment after that.
I'm not making a Roger/Andy comparison, Da Da. You'd disagree with me if I told you the sky was blue at this point.
But he DID own up to that. Sometimes the truth comes out slowly and IMO, it doesn't matter how long it takes to come out, the important thing is, it comes out eventually. And I believe Andy's reasons for why it took a while to come out. There isn't one of us who would come right out and bring public embarassment to a loved one w/o first being confronted (in the least!). Don't hold someone to a higher standard than you would hold yourself to right?
I think you're looking at things too broadly here. This particular case is a very sensitive issue for obvious reasons, and when you look at the evidence surrounding this, it reveals a history of lies or omissions. I'm not saying I don't believe him. I'm not saying he can't be telling the truth. What I'm saying is the "hero" and "role model" light the committee painted Andy as is absurd. I think too many people have this desire to make someone the hero and someone the goat. What I'm talking about in this thread isn't about favoring Andy over Roger. I think Andy is closer to the truth than Roger is, but that's my own gut feel and I don't know this. What I'm talking about isn't whether Roger is telling the truth. It's about the consistent pattern of hero worship, cheering and "role model" talk that the committee and some media members have given to Pettitte in the past week. Yes, he might be telling truth now. If I had to bet, I'd say he is. But that doesn't mean I have to ignore his history of lies, assume his story is 100 percent and point to him as an example for kids to look up to. He's made his share of mistakes too, and holding Andy accountable for that doesn't have to mean you like Roger or believe his side.
Then I feel sorry for you MadMax. I know you are a religious guy, and I believe you are very genuine about it. If you were in a similar situation, I believe you too would have to reconcile your devotion to your family, your devotion to God and your devotion to your country. In the same situation, would you have brought public embarassment to a loved one if you thought you could get away with it? Maybe, maybe no, but don't act like there is not a moral dilemma there and whether or not it would or would not prevent you from telling "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".
Bull. ****. A lie is a lie. If you think a lie anywhere is acceptable, then *you* have no credibility, either.
