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Hawking: Black Holes don't have event horizon

Discussion in 'BBS Hangout' started by Ottomaton, Jul 16, 2004.

  1. fadeaway

    fadeaway Member

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    So what you're saying is that there was really no need to trade Francis. All we had to do was toss him into the nearest black hole, and he would rematerialize at the other end as an unselfish pass-first point guard with vision.
     
  2. Cohen

    Cohen Member

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    I think it's cool that the universe doesn't like to destroy information.
     
  3. rockHEAD

    rockHEAD Member

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  4. AstroRocket

    AstroRocket Member

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    This stuff is all nice and interesting and all, but I can't help but wondering, can dude's wheelchair fly yet? 'Cause man, if he wants my respect for his so-calld "theories," he damn well better have a flying wheelchair by now like on the Simpsons.

    Hell, screw black holes. If I was him, I'd be figuring out a way to strap jet engines to that mother f*cker and fly around shouting, "I'm Stephen hawking, b****!"

    Everyone would love me. People would look up and be like, "There's goes the baddest assed nerd I've ever seen." And women would throw their panties at me.
     
  5. tierre_brown

    tierre_brown Member

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    What exactly is this "event horizon"? (sorry if it's a stupid question)
     
  6. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Again, trust in Wikipedia

    An event horizon is a boundary in spacetime for a given observer beyond which no information, including light, can reach the observer. The most famous example is a black hole, which for a distant and stationary observer (such as someone at Earth) is surrounded by an event horizon. It is a spherical surface located at the Schwarzschild radius (also called gravitational radius or radius of a black hole). Light emitted from inside the event horizon will never reach a stationary observer outside the horizon, hence the name black hole. Note the dependency on the observer of the concept of event horizon. For example, a free falling observer toward a black hole does not experience an event horizon (see e.g. catastrophic gravitational collapse).

    The event horizon for an outside observer really acts as a horizon. He sees an object falling toward the horizon approaching it, but (in his own proper time) never reaching it. In his observations the object goes slower and slower toward the horizon and at the same time the redshift increases beyond bounds to infinity. Also the intensity of the falling object quickly becomes zero. In a finite time the outside observer will receive the last photon from the falling object. He will never see the falling object passing through the event horizon.

    The event horizon is distinct from the particle horizon.

    Sticking your hand through an event horizon
    One can ask what happens, when a stationary observer is in orbit just outside the event horizon and (against all advice) sticks his hand through the horizon? The answer is: he won't succeed in doing so. Free orbits are only possible at a certain distance (for a non-rotating black hole at at least three times the Schwarzschild radius). Near the event horizon, an observer can only remain at a constant radius when he uses a force (e.g. from a rocket) to keep him there. The force needed, grows to infinity when the observer wants to maintain a steady constant orbit approaching the event horizon. When he sticks out his hand, the tidal force (the difference between body and hand along his arm) also becomes infinitely high, so his hand will be chopped off before he manages to do so.

    The physical consequences of the previous paragraph are drawn by Stephen Hawking. Everywhere in the vacuum of space virtual particle pairs are created and annihilate quickly. Near an event horizon, they can be separated. Effectively, a particle or photon will be emitted from the horizon, the so-called Hawking radiation.

    Event horizon in the absence of gravity
    Event horizons also exist in the absence of gravity. A simple example is a uniform accelerated particle (whose speed will thus eventually approach the speed of light but will always be smaller). Light emitted at a certain distance in the direction of that particle will never reach the accelerated particle. It is beyond the event horizon for that particle. Such event horizons occur in particle accelerators.

    [​IMG]

    A part of spacetime forms an event horizon as observed from a constantly accelerated observer. The world line of the observer is given as the solid curve in a two dimensional spacetime representation with time x0 in the vertical direction and a one dimensional space coordinate x3 to the right. An angle of 45 degrees indicate the speed of light, such as the world line of a photon traveling to the right and starting in a. The world line of the observer is described by a hyperbola. The parameter along his path is รด, his proper time. In O his speed is zero and evetually he will reach a speed close to the velocity of light, inclined at an angle of 45 degrees. This asymptotic line is his future event horizon. A photon emitted at any event to the left of it (such as the emission of a photon from event a) will never reach him (as long as the observer maintains a constant acceleration).

    If someone at constant zero velocity (a static observer with a vertical line as worldline) would emit photons to the right, then the accelerated observer would see all photons below the event horizon, but in his proper time it would take longer and longer when these photons are emitted closer to the horizon. Also they are more and more redshifted. The accelerated observer would never see the static observer pass the event horizon.

    Other examples of an event horizon

    Hypothetically, an event horizon can also exist in a universe, for an observer at a given location in space-time, who remains at the same comoving spatial position. When a universe expands quickly enough, for example a de Sitter universe, it can be possible for an event horizon to exist.
     
  7. tierre_brown

    tierre_brown Member

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    So....basically....I can now stick my hand through a black hole and NOT get it "chopped off"?

    (Thanks for the explanation/link/Wikipedia, Ottomaton)
     
  8. Ottomaton

    Ottomaton Member
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    Really, for a black hole it's kind of theoretical, becuse:

    Think about how when one moves away from earth, the gravity that earth exerts on you goes down.

    Black Holes are essentially giant megga-masses, and the effect is so pronounced that there is a strong enough gravity gradient between your head and your feet that the additional gravity on your lower body would basically stretch your body until it splits into individual atoms and finally individual particles.

    Of course, the gravity causes excitation among the particles such that you'd basically be radioactive by the time you reached the event horizon. This page has a link to an image of the high-energy jets that shoot out of the poles of some black holes as a result.

    Finally, becuase the gravity is so intense, you are accelerated to nearly the speed of light and one of the side effects of general relativity is that the closer to the speed of light you move, your subjective experience of time slows down. The effect is known as Time Dialation

    The important issue here is that based on the traditional definition of a black hole, material entering essentially seperates itself from our universe, because it will never interact with the universe again.

    Hawkning's new concept ultimately makes a big difference regarding potential end of the universe theories, and probably dozens of other physics issues which are beyond me.

    If you are not sure why these sorts of things are important to us in the world now, consider the Bose-Einstein Condensate which shares many properties with black holes.

    As a laser is a quantity of light that derives it's special properties from the fact that all of the waves are alligned in phase, a bose einstein condensate is a chunk of matter in which all of the electrons are reduced to the lowest state of energy, and are thus in phase. Essentially what happens is that all of these atoms come to occupy more or less the same physical space!

    Many people suspect that Bose Einstein Condensates will have the same wide reaching impact on the technologies that lasers have had over the last 30 years, once the details become worked out.
     
  9. rockHEAD

    rockHEAD Member

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    ^^^^

    uh-huh...... :eek:

    i think that just fried my brain...
     
  10. outlaw

    outlaw Member

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    it's a crappy space horror movie with Lawrence Fishburne
     
  11. AstroRocket

    AstroRocket Member

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    You know, although I was joking around in my earlier post, I must say that I'm glad that I took Astronomy in college. Just a couple years ago, I wouldn't have understood anything in Ottomaton's posts, but now, not only do I know what they're talking about, I'm actually somewhat excited.

    Weird. :eek:
     
  12. Rockets2K

    Rockets2K Clutch Crew

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    man....am I glad I actually read up on black holes and event horizon theory after I watched The Black Hole...I guess my weird need to read about anything that even slightly tweaks my interest has finally paidoff. .....I think...:confused:

    I still dont understand what it has to do with us....how does this new information(if the theory is proved) affect us?


    and last but not least.....I would revise outlaw's statement to say that Event Horizon was a creepy and crappy scifi horror movie starring Lawrence Fishburne
     
  13. tacoma park legend

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    I've always been comically arrogant, and the most notorious of my many academic gaffes occured in fifth grade at my advanced school, or whatever one might call such an assemblage of precocious brats.

    We weren't graded there, but recieved an evaluation from the teacher, based primarily on our final presentations. While the other students worked feverishly on their projects, I idly sat by, not giving a sh*t, as usual.

    In the end, I decided to do my presentation on a book my neighbor had given me, "A Brief History of Time". I understood maybe 20% of it....didn't really matter.

    When the unveiling day was upon me, I came equipped with a few crappy xerox'ed dictionary pages, a black balloon, and plenty of hot-air.

    My big "finale" was blowing up the balloon and slowly letting out the air, to help the other students visualize the out of this world splendor of the black hole.

    It's hard to describe the mixture of rage/shock/suppressed laughter in the other kids' faces as they absorbed the monumentaly pathetic project they had just witnessed.

    I was almost kicked out for that, recieve sh*t about it from my friends to this day, but I made it to Cambridge for some schooling one summer, so good luck Hawk, just keep it under 80 on the scooter, badass.
     
  14. GreenVegan76

    GreenVegan76 Member

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    This could be a landmark finding. If he has, in fact, proven that information can escape black holes, then it could send a ripple through the entire scientific community. His presentation could be historic.
     

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