I understand that. There is a lot that's distasteful that comes out of the politicization (is that a word?) of the church...for believers and non-believers alike. I find it repugnant..awful...horrible...and borderline blasphemous, frankly.
That wasnt my intention. If I wanted to say ," "if you have to ask that question, you suck."", I would have said that. He said in his original post that his parishioners compare him to Falwell, etc. He obviously sees this. My point is, why not focus on the delivery instead of the message. My grandparents who are in their late 80s often complain about their church population shrinking. I think this is probably the case with alot of Christian churches outside of Joel Osteen's. If you're a pastor, I think it would be in your best interest to address this question.
Christianity is the fastest growing religion in the world. It is shrinking in the US and Europe, where it only had one way to go. But there are many who don't have a problem with that...when the doors of churches that have forgot how to be churches are shut, I'm not real upset. There are good churches that are growing big time around the US. Willow Creek and Saddleback come to mind as key examples, right off the top of my head. Frankly, I think the church, as a whole, has watered down its message so much as to not be very distinct from the same moral message I could get watching a re-run of Friends. But those churches that have resisted that are growing. Those churches that proclaim Christ and then try to live Him out to their communities are flourishing.
My grandparents who are in their late 80s often complain about their church population shrinking. I think this is probably the case with alot of Christian churches ... My cousin is a Methodist preacher/pastor/reverend and she said to me that this is a very big problem with the Methodists.
Imagine you're a Christian for a sec...you believe Christ to be holy. You're an American. You love your country...but recognize its many downfalls. And you see people equating symbols like the Cross with the American flag. Yuck. Seriously. Very offensive to me. And we're seeing that big time among those who are dubbed "the religious right" in America. I suppose in many ways I fall in that category...but I'm not of the belief that your voting record is the leading indicator of your relationship with God. And I certainly don't believe that one political party is the party of God and the other of sin. I'm pro-life...to me that means being more than pro-birth. That puts me at odds with many "Christians" who would denounce government assistance to the poor, for example.
Those churches that proclaim Christ and then try to live Him out to their communities are flourishing. I disagree. I think in general some of the institutions of our parents are not being transfered generationally. The problem I mentioned above with the Methodist church is that they are failing to attrack young people. Another institution in deep trouble is the Masons/Shiners, for the exact same reason.
My grandparents are members of the Methodist church, so based on MadMax's post I guess its only that branch of Christianity that is shrinking.
Because it's not compelling. Because if your message is so watered down, then there's really no reason to show up. If I didn't believe Christ was who I believe he was, I'd rather spend my Sunday mornings watching ESPN. Note the churches that are growing...and look for the distinctions between those which are shrinking. Non-denominational churches are growing like crazy. Mainline Protestant denominations are shrinking. The Catholic Church continues to grow. There's a reason for all of that.
I felt it was because American materialism is catching up to the people. People are left empty inside even though they have high-powered careers and expensive cars. Thus, they seek out church to get a quick fix....
that's not what i said...it's just a typical mainline protestant denomination...like my own church...which is shrinking.
Bottom line...evangelical protestant churches are growing....those that aren't, are not growing. Which really shouldn't surprise anyone. If you don't believe your message is compelling enough to talk about, then you probably won't attract many people. I read a study from PCUSA (presby church/usa) which has trended to be a pretty liberal mainline denomination (and one of which i'm a member right now) which spells this out very definitively. The churches that do things that are more associated with outreach and serving the communities around them are the ones that are growing. The ones that believe they actually have a unique message to share are the ones that are growing. Those that aren't/don't...are not.
Do you feel good about your church, and others like it shrinking, as long as christianity continues to grow? I tend to lean more towards the Catholic church. I dont think that growth in non-denominational churches is really good for Christianity. To use an analogy, joining a non-denominational church seems to me like buying a used car.
Again from conversations with my Right Reverend Cousin, she says that the Methodist churches that are bucking the trend are those which are catering to their younger members. As an example of catering, some churches are making the middle Sunday service their Youth Service where they have more music and variety (for the MTV crowd?). I am not sure how that compares with the new mega, nondenominational churches.
The irony in the neo-cons finding so much of their base in the fundies is that Jesus was a revolutionary.
First let me say that neither I nor anyone else can tell you for sure who is and who isn’t a Christian. We know that there are people who call themselves Christians who aren’t. The Bible itself warns of false prophets and wolves in sheep’s clothing. (see Matthew 7) We are to discern for ourselves, however, what is seems true and what doesn't. This is not the same as judging because we can never be 100% sure we’re right. But we do need to discern and make decisions about who we should be listening to and what church to go to and support and other such decisions. On the question of who is forgiven, again, only the individual knows for sure what is in their heart. From my experience I can tell you that I believe when a person sincerely seeks God in their heart and soul and completely humbles themselves before him and accept the forgiveness, the forgivenss that was made possible by Jesus’ sacrifice, (because we don’t by ourselves deserve forgiveness. We are not ourselves righteous.) Then you enter a relationship with God. For some people that’s an immediate, massive, transformational moment. For other people, especially children, it’s something that just seems natural. I can speak to the massive transformational experience because that’s what happened to me. Others here became Christians as children and every Christian will have their own story to tell. I suggest listening to them all and finding out which ones resonate with you and which people you relate to and can talk to best. You most certainly should look into what people say and decide for yourself what rings true and what doesn’t. Even from Christians, even from the best Christians, there are some things they will do and say that are not Godly, or Christ like. We are not perfect. We are flawed humans. As a Christian the only thing I can tell you for sure is that not 100% of what I say and represent to you will be of God. Indeed in my case I suspect you’ve seen many of my warts/issues on display in some threads these last few days. You need to discern for yourself what rings true and resonates with you and where you think I or any other Christian for that matter may be off base. As for the truths, I believe that there is an absolute truth, but none of us knows or can know it. A good church acts like a “body of Christ.” In it different people will have different gifts and weaknesses, and they help each other from their strengths and accept help when they need it and become aware of it. Spreading the gospel is just talking about what you believe and more importantly representing what you believe through the way you live. Over the centuries massive damage has been done by countless people in the name of spreading the gospel. Some of that was well meaning people making mistakes and other parts of it I don’t think had any well meaning involved at all. So we’re back to what I was saying about not all Christians being Christians and the fact that Christians make mistakes and fall short. You need to discern for yourself what’s true and what isn’t. I’d suggest going to these good examples of Christians you were talking about and asking them about this. I’m sure they’ll be happy to talk about it and as you already recognise the goodness in them you’ll have a better connection with them and be able to relate to what they’re saying better. (As a footnote on Jerry Falwell, he is a guy that I personally do not listen to AT ALL on Christian matters or any other matters for that matter.)
I guess one problem in this discussion is that one of us is talking about "applied Christianity" while the other is talking about "Christianity theory"
