I’m not following what you’re saying. What I said was straight from the Bible. Read Romans 3. Did I say that Christians can follow any laws they like anywhere? If so please point it out to me so I can correct it. I thought I said just the opposite. As for why people quote the OT, there are all kinds of reasons, some good, some bad, some informed, some misinformed, other reasons … That’s too general a statement for me to respond to.
i suppose if i made this statement it would be viewed as judgmental. but i certainly understand the sentiment behind it! unfortunately.
Of course the bible would say that. If it said, "there are many people who have no sin, they need not follow the word of God." Err, that would defeat the whole purpose, eh? What I'm saying is that you realize everyone sins. Christians and Non-christians alike. Yet non-Christians are going to hell. Great. I thought it was funny because the realist and christian way is often opposites, but perhaps that's more in action. -Teenage girls having more and more pregnancy. Realist: Sex-ed and more sex-ed. Bring out contraceptives! Christians: Abstinence and more God in schools -Cutting edge Medical research (stem cells) Realist: Save lives. More research. Christians: Destroy the stem cells. No more stem cells research. That wasn't a statment towards you. You never made such a bold claim. Rather, it was a statment about all christians in general.
I understand that also. And I would like to say I am not attempting to bash Christians or say we ARE all hypocrites. I just wondered what experiences people have had that made them say- now THAT person is different, like my old Granny really reminds me of Jesus. That is a pretty good compliment. I remember a funeral I was told about in Houston, a Christian man had died and at the end of his funeral one of his four sons went up unexpected to the front of the church and said something like " I just want to say that my father, all the years I knew him, was the most Christ- like person I have ever met and he treated my mom and every other person I know with the most sincere love and respect I have ever seen." Immediately one after another his other sons stood to their feet and expressed similar belief. Then others who knew the man felt compelled to confirm those feelings. And many people shared about the man's character and just how much He exemplified Christ. I thought that must have been a special dad, and I would like to think he wasn't boastful or presuming either. It is so refreshing to here good things about Christians. I think that is a reflection on Jesus. I would think the portrayal of the religious right in the media would be much more positive if more of the good stories were known. I could say so many positive things about Christians in general. But I don't think my endorsement would carry the same weight.
I agree, and I was there in fact, even as a young Christian. It kept me from finding a Church community for a long time in fact. MartainMan: The people you mentioned are IMO the kinds of people who are the shining examples of Christianity. But many if not most Christians are highly imperfect people. We have our issues that we struggle with and we have our issues that we haven’t even become aware of yet. Being a Christian is a life long growing process. But if you can see past the imperfections to who these people are at their core you will find a lot more who you will recognise as Christians. You will still find a number who aren’t. I won’t kid you there. But there is a much large percentage of us who are Christians but who don’t produce bumper crops of good fruit or who go through periods of time where we don’t produce much good fruit. I’m not saying this as an excuse, but it is a reality. It’s part of the struggle of being a Christian and I think all of us go through it at times, and some of us unfortunately seem to go through it more than others.
Attempt #2 to derail this thread ... Thomas Jefferson create his own NT cannon, keeping what he liked from the traditional canon and discarding the rest. Some have said that Jefferson created his Jesus in his own image. Since the 1800s there have been several "Who is the Real Jesus?" academic movements. Amazingly most of the researchers end up like Jefferson creating a Jesus from their own image. To answer your question, I think that we all met Jesus every morning when we look in the mirror.
I guess since this is what you're getting at with this thread I will say that I've met more Christians who didn't live up to Jesus' teachings of forgiveness, compassion and love than Christians who did. I would say from that standpoint they are hypocrites but I not being a Christian or one steeped in Christian theology I don't know for sure. I guess it comes down to what is considered essential to Christianity which I don't think as a non-Christian I can answer. Hows that? Clear as a milkshake.
Martian Man I think I follow with what you're saying but I'm not sure if this is a matter of reconciling a realists way with a Christian way. Let me paraphrase something that I say all the time in the Evolution v ID threads. Faith and reality (observable / empiracally provable) are different things and its a mistake to justify or prove one with the other. In this case I don't think the idea that all have sin but only Christians go to heaven really has anything to do with a realism. I don't believe in the Christian version of Heaven or Hell so being told I'm going to one or the other has no bearing on me. I can't objectively prove there isn't a Heaven or Hell and neither can a Christian objectively prove there is. So in the end its just faith on both our parts and in any affect it has on our behavior has to do with how much we believe one or the other. In regard to the actions I generally agree with your viewpoints and that the solutions you present are realistic but that doesn't have to do with faith which is meant to be held regardless of realism. Tests of faith usually force a believer to go beyond perceived reality. So in my own case I do plenty of things that have no bearing on objective reality, like burning incense for my ancestors, but are meaningful because that is my faith. I can understand how this is difficult to reconcile with a logically consistent viewpoint but like I said in the other thread I believe we can both be spiritual and rational beings even if they appear to conflict with each other.
In the summer's I help at a camp for children and young adults with special needs. Many times I have seen the face of Jesus reflected in their faces. One girl that stands out is Melody. Melody has Aspergers syndrome and is fairly high functioning. She is never in a bad mood, allways has a smile for everyone. Her faith is pure and simple. She prays before tasks, feels sorry for anyone in need (whether they were just mean to her or nice), and will encourage anyone to try harder. When she fails she smiles and brushes herself off and trys again. Her faith humbles me. Often people of faith will spout all the Bible verses or theological knowledge they know but forget to love their neighbors. Melody helps me keep that in focus. There was a girl named Caroline at a small church I attended. When she was young she had a bad bought of spinal menegitis. It left her with poor vision, a limp, and brain damage. She would make her way through the church, stop at each person, put her hand on your stomach and say "Who are you?" after you answered she'd say "Hi (insert name here), I'm Caroline" and move on to the next person. After I attended Church their for a while and I started getting involved alot. I was proud of my accomplishmetns. One week Caroline was making her rounds. When she got to me she said "Who are you?". I said "Dan". And like she was looking for me, she didn't ask her normal question she asked "What do you do at this Church?". I looked down at Caroline and realized that even if I told her everything I did she wouldn't get it, so I said "I don't know what do you do?". In a calm clear and unhesitant voice she said "Worship God?". With 2 little words she knocked me off the pedestal I sat myself upon. God sent the very one who I didn't think could "get it" to remind me what "it" was. Yes, that day I saw a little bit of Jesus in Caroline.
My encounter with Caroline was one of the pivotal moments in my faith. As soon as she said the words they hit me like a brick. Jesus said we need the faith of a child.
This original post seems kind of ironic. You're looking for people's encounters with Jesus-like people, yet admitting being compared to right-wing nut jobs. You plan to use these encounters to teach your "flock"--maybe you should first focus on becoming a higher-thought of, respected pastor. To answer your question, I've met several people with Christ-like qualities--some Christian, some not. What I've yet to meet is a priest/pastor who has Christ-like qualities. I'm not real religious, but from a laymen's point of view, the biggest problem with the Christian church is the leaders inablility to relate to their parishioners. Right wing nut jobs are a dime a dozen. Rather than focusing on "the message" you and other leaders should focus more on how to get that message across. Good luck.
Your comments sound judgemental to me because there isn't a unified consensus of where the entire Christian establishment stands. Even the core values of Christianity have been argued by different sects. So then you could frame from have Jesus' written word. From my personal observations, not many humans can assume that high a standard. Then by what set line or gauge is it that forgives those flawed Christians, and at what point are they really 'aren't Christian'? That last question can be hypothetical. So back to your point, you have conservative heads, who could be self-identitified Christians, who trash Islam based on the actions of Fundamentalists and people dancing in streets celebrating American failures. It doesn't matter whether they (both the Christians and Muslims) are a minority because it isn't an issue about numbers. Most of the time, I generally believe that there is a personal truth in the absense of absolute truths. So I find it difficult to take in your comment's meaning when one of a Christian's core duties is to Spread the Gospel. Like the Fundamentalists, Bin Laden and Jerry Falwel, they're spreading their Faith in their unique ways just from their actions. I realize that's only a part of your intended meaning. I agree about the personal relationship to God, which is why I get skeptical in other people's comments.
Excellent point. Perhaps, that was my underlying theme but I didn't express it as well as you. To follow from my previous post, everyone sins, yet Christians are going to heaven. At what point are you Christian? The typical response is, "if you believe Jesus Christ is your lord and savior." Well, then, though many people say they believe, their action and behavior shows otherwise. We, non-Christians, point out that fact, and Christians proclaim, "everyone sins." That just seems like an excuse. Everytime you lie, everytime you don't help someone in need, are you just going to keep giving excuses? At what point are you truly Christian?
1. i've met the man...i certainly have a ton of respect for him, and i'm certain his flock does too. a common theme here i see...someone posts a "give me your thoughts" thread...and it's met with, "if you have to ask that question, you suck." let's chill with that. 2. i encourage you to go out and meet more pastors, then. please. the pastor of my church is an amazing man...gentle, kind and loving. rhester i've found to be the same way. the priest at the Episcopal Church I grew up in was the same. there are some out there i question...whom i don't mix well with. but a ton are great people.
If you're looking for simple answers here you won't find them. Even as a Christian, I struggle with these questions. I call myself a Christian because I seek to follow Christ's example....I fall short...but I certainly seek to. this may help you, too: John 3:16-21 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God."[
I definitely understand the whole struggle, etc. And that verse is basically what I said about following Jesus. I really wouldn't mind the whole Christian thing if they didn't try to create new laws and stir up crap.
