That’s terrible news Max. I’m very sorry to hear that. You and your friend and his passenger and their families certainly have my prayers.
God “the father” is the only God according to today’s Christianity too. The Trinity in no way diminishes that. Our God doesn’t have “partners”. What the Trinity is is a matter of debate, and I’ve given you my thoughts on that, but there is no debate over whether it means there is more than one God. That’s not even a question for any Christian denomination that I know of. If you ask any Christian whether they believe in one God or multiple Gods virtually all of them will say they believe in one God. If anyone has told you otherwise they were lying to you. The Qur’an was written about 600 years after Jesus was crucified and hundreds of years after the Bible was written and compiled. The Bible today is essentially the same today as it was then. There were fringe groups back then who believed things that deviated far from the core teachings, as there are today, in both the Christians and Muslim faiths, so I think we can safely assume that the Qur’an was talking about the widely held Christian beliefs as expressed in the Bible of the day. And that Bible is also the Bible of today. Here is a list, not even a complete list, of verses from today's Bible stating that there is one God. You can look up the exact passage here. http://www.biblegateway.com/ 1. DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39 2. DEUTERONOMY 6:4 3. DEUTERONOMY 32:39 4. 2 SAMUEL 7:22 5. 1 KINGS 8:60 6. 2 KINGS 5:15 7. 2 KINGS 19:15 8. NEHEMIAH 9:6 9. PSALM 18:31 10. PSALM 86:10 11. ISAIAH 37:16,20 12. ISAIAH 43:10,11 13. ISAIAH 44:6,8 14. ISAIAH 45:21 15. ISAIAH 46:9 16. HOSEA 13:4 17. JOEL 2:27 18. ZECHARIAH 14:9 19. MARK 12:29-34 20. JOHN 17:3 21. ROMANS 3:30 22. 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6 23. GALATIANS 3:20 24. EPHESIANS 4:6 25. 1 TIMOTHY 1:17 26. 1 TIMOTHY 2:5 27. JAMES 2:19
This is very good to know that you believe in monotheism, and that God "the father" is the one true God. But I am very confused by your description of the trinity. You said that God "the father" is the only God according to today's Christianity as well, but in another post you said, "They (referring to the Holy Spirit and Jesus) serve different roles but they are both of God and are God. So if they are God, then God "the father" isn't the only part of God? Again, I agree that most Christians do truly believe in one God and that the Bible calls to it, but I do not believe that the trinity works to make this belief true. When you turn to Islam's view on God, it is very clear, and needs no explanation. We believe there is God "the father" and that's all. Jesus is the slave of God and a noble and respected prophet, but nothing more than that. As it says in the Qur'an: "Say: He, Allah, is One. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4) And regarding the status of Jesus, the Qur'an says: "Surely the likeness of Jesus in the providence of Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He (Allah) created him of dust, thereafter He said to him, “Be!” so he was." (Aal`Imran 3:59) "O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit* from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender. Christ disdaineth not to serve and worship Allah, nor do the angels, those nearest (to Allah): those who disdain His worship and are arrogant,-He will gather them all together unto Himself to (answer)," (An-Nisa:171-172) (*In reference to Gabriel, the Arabic Quran calls him; "Ruhhil-Qudus" (Holy Spirit), "Ruuhanaa" (Our Spirit), "Ruuhul-'Amiin" (The Honest Spirit) and "Al-Ruh' " (The Spirit) . Thus, when reading the verses in the Quran, the whole Quran, we see that Gabriel is the Holy and Honest Bearer of Revelations.) I can see you believe in pure monotheism. The Qur'an and its monotheistic concept of God offers no confusion in any regard, so why aren't you Muslim? Oh, and you asked earlier if Muslims condone murder, please read the following in response to that question. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503545966 and http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/...h-Ask_Scholar/FatwaE/FatwaE&cid=1119503544482
if your question applies also to me...then my answer is i believe Jesus was the Christ. the Messiah. the savior of the world. I believe he was crucified..that event was documented in sacred and secular sources. he became the goat in the spirit of the ancient Jewish yom kippur sacrifice. i believe he was resurrected. i believe sin keeps us from God...that I can't "earn" my way out of that. that God had intense mercy on the world by the granting of this gift. this gift changed my life in a very real way...not just in a, "i'll see you in heaven after i die," way. but in the here and now. not in adherence to commands...but because my heart is different so that things that used to cause me to fall down do not anymore. and it's still continuing to happen. and i've seen the same happen to others. lives absolutely transformed...some far more dramatically than my own. p.s. -- thanks for the prayers, guys. yesterday was a really rough day.
grizzled's list is great. but to explain you question further, i gotta tell a story first. i went to church today (like most sundays) and in the bulletin there are sermon notes to follow along. today's sermon? the triune Godhead. i was amazed (to say the least) that this was today's sermon, and i learned quite a bit. anyway, on to what i learned, hopefully i can explain it as well as it was said. first we looked at these 2 verses. Isaiah 45:5 and 1 Corinthians 8:4 these clearly state there is only 1 God. but here is where it gets interesting, and this is what i really liked look at Genesis 1:1 simple enough, most people have this one memorized. but this is merely the english translation (NKJV btw) but if you read it in hebrew, God is elohim which means the Gods. meaning there should be more than 1 right? well look at Isaiah 6:8 so it would seem to me, God either has split personalities, or we can't understand it fully. i'll sum it up with a quote that the pastor gave, "the man who tries to define the trinity may be in danger of losing his mind. but the one who dares to deny the trinity is in real danger of losing his soul."
How does that not really bother you?? Your pastor phrased that sentence really nicely, but I am bewildered by what he's saying. Defining the most basic concept of who God is makes a Christian go on the verge of insanity? I know he was using a bit of hyperbole, but really consider this question that I'm asking you: why would God say that salvation only comes through believing a really complex concept that nobody can understand? Is that fair to ask reasonable, free-minded human beings to disregard their logic and just believe? Do the verses below not make more sense? "Say: He, Allah, is One. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4) "Surely the likeness of Jesus in the providence of Allah is as the likeness of Adam. He (Allah) created him of dust, thereafter He said to him, “Be!” so he was." (Aal`Imran 3:59)
John 4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. 24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth. 25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things. This scripture may help with the understanding of the Christian view of the Trinity. Jesus said God is a Spirit. Some of the difficulty of seeing the Christian Father God as one God comes form viewing this only from a human perspective. It is clear that the scriptures teach there is one God. Grizzled has done an excellent job of pointing this out. When Jesus was baptized in the Jordan river, the Father spoke from heaven and said 'This is my beloved son in whom I am well pleased' and the Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus as a dove. At that moment Jesus was present, the Father spoke to him and the Holy Spirit descended. All three were present and accounted for. From human perspective we view Father, Son and Spirit as three separate persons. Christians worship the Father and the Son Jesus. This appears to contradict there is one God, But let's look at it as scripture describes God and see a different perspective. At the start of John's gospel it is explained that the Word of God became flesh and dwelt among us, speaking of Jesus the Son of God. John in later chapters writes that the Holy Spirit will be given to believers after Jesus ascends to heaven. Now the God of Abraham is the same God of the New Testament Christian. God is a spirit. What we understand is that God was manifest or revealed in the flesh (the Christ). That God sent His Spirit to indwell believers (Christians). The confusion may come from the worship of Jesus and the Father. But Jesus said they are one. In other words Jesus came from the Father (spirit). The Holy Spirit is not worshipped, but Jesus sent the Spirit from the Father (spirit). The real issue is what is God's nature and how has He revealed himself to man? How do we humans describe God as a spirit? Do we know what a spirit is? This does not mean He is a ghost. When we call God a person it is confusing because we limit Him to human understanding and that leads us to think of three distinct 'persons'. We do not have full human knowledge as to the nature of God as spirit. That is OK if we understand they are one God. The scriptures teach us that God is a spirit, and His words became flesh and that His Spirit present in the world is the Holy Spirit. If God the Father is God then why do we worship Jesus God's Son? Because they are one. John 10: 23-30 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me. 26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. 30- I and my Father are one. It is not hard for me to understand that God is a spirit, Jesus is God in the flesh and the same God sends His spirit to help me. Jesus was crucified because He was accused of being one with God. John 5:18Therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only had broken the sabbath, but said also that God was his Father, making himself equal with God. I did not post this to make the trinity clearer to the non-Christian, but to give reason for Christians to understand that the Lord God is one God. Mark 12:28-33 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all? 29And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: 30And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. 31And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. 32And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: 33And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.
The way I think of the Trinity is like H2O. In it's natural state, it is a liquid (water). Heat it up and it becomes a gas (steam). Freeze it and it becomes a solid (ice). All the same molecules but 3 different forms - 3 in 1.
that "us" is also in the Quran. it's a translation problem. it's signified to highlight the significance of the person/entity you're talking about. go to 2.49-2.57 in the Quran where God is talking about himself and refers to himself as "We." "We gave you clouds above your heads..." "We raised you up after your deaths..." Throughout these texts and the Bible there is the concept of God being MORE. We don't have a word that translates properly. That captures a person in a pronoun while still signifying something more. Remember...Judaism and Islam are eastern religions. Concepts and lines of logic are very different. Writing styles are very different. This is what Christ was born in to as Jew, and we're somewhat limiited in our understanding of the Bible in the western world because of it.
important point. there were all sorts of folks claiming to be a messiah. claiming to be the Jewish "conqueror" who would free them all from the Romans and finally establish a powerful political state. but Jesus went much further than that. they would talk about manna, and he would say that HE was the bread of life. they would talk about the temple, and he'd tell them that HE was the new temple. these are powerful symbols for the culture he was addressing in communicating who he was. there woudl be no misunderstanding that. and clearly there wasn't.
I and all Christians believe this, and the Bible couldn’t be much clearer on this point. The very first of the 10 commandments says: 2 "I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery. 3 "You shall have no other gods before [a] me. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=2&chapter=20&version=31 Jesus himself was asked what the most important commandment is: 28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=mark 12&version=31 Even further, I listed above 27 chapters in the Bible that state that there is only one God. It’s safe to say the Bible is clear on this point. It is and always has been one of the very foundational beliefs of Christianity, the single most important commandment. God is a very confusing concept/entity for a lot of people. How can one being see what millions of people are doing at once? How can he communicate with millions of people at the same time? A lot of people can’t understand how one being could do all of this. Of course people who believe in the God of Abraham know that God can be in an infinite number of places at the same time, or perhaps it’s more accurate to say that he is everywhere at the same time. If you’re ok with this concept then I don’t think it’s much of a stretch to say that He can communicate different ways, even different ways at once. The more difficult question is, why do we specifically call the Holy Spirit the Holy Spirit and not just God, and why did God send his Son as a form of communication with us? I’ve already given you my thoughts on these two points. We could certainly get into more of a discussion about the Holy Spirit because many believe that it came at a certain point in the New Testament for a certain reason and that this was a form of communication God hadn’t used until then. This position is complicated, however, by the fact the Holy Spirit is mentioned in the OT as well, but that’s another discussion. So you can see that there are complicated discussions around the finer points of these issues, but there is essentially no discussion around the foundational belief that there is only one God. (I note that there’s an interesting reference to the Holy Spirit there). Again, I don’t think the concept of an ever present God is all that easy for many to understand, and once you do understand that I think the idea that God might communicate in different ways is really no more complicated. On Jesus, I think what’s needed is a deeper understanding of who Jesus is and why he came. On the face of it it’s an obvious question, one that I asked myself before I became a Christian. Why would an all powerful God send a “son” to earth? What would be the point of doing that? There indeed is a point and understanding that point is key to understanding Christianity. There are different ways to come at the answer to this question. From scripture I’ve already discussed the key passages where God asked Abraham to sacrifice his “only son”. Given that key event in the teachings from Old Testament it’s easy to see how incredibly powerful a statement it is for God to send his “only son” to pay for the sins of all who believe, one that people who knew the OT would clearly understand. Was Jesus really God’s son? Why would God actually do that? If Jesus wasn’t really his son then this sacrifice wouldn’t be real. God is surely powerful enough to be able to “create” and send a son to earth in this way, and in order for this to be a real sacrifice he had to be his real son. Christians believe that God is all powerful and certainly powerful enough to do this. (Note that I put create in quotation marks because if Jesus is another form of God then he has always been, just like God has always been). Another way, and ultimately the way everyone has to come to God, is by seeking Him in our hearts. God doesn’t want us to mindlessly or lovelessly obey a list of laws. He never did. He desires relationship with us, personal relationship, a relationship much like the perfect father child relationship. But we are stubborn and hard hearted and often need to be humbled and broken before we will humbly turn to him. The law of the OT was given to us just for that purpose, not so that we would keep it, but because he knew we would fail in trying to keep it. (Again, see Romans). Once we understand that we cannot uphold the law, that we fail to do so on a daily basis, then we are left with the choice of turning to God as a child submits and turns to his father for forgiveness and help. On what grounds would God forgive us? He has already established a law that says the wages of sin are death. Does he overturn it or waive it? What power would the law really have it he did that? Instead he maintained the law but transcended it, or completed it, with a new covenant that allowed all sins to be washed away by the blood of Christ, by the sacrifice God made of his only Son for the sins of the world. So when we pursue God internally by grappling with our own shortcoming and failings we end up coming full circle to an understanding of why God has a Son and why he sacrificed his Son for us. And it was part of the plan from the very beginning. What this means for Jews and presumably Muslims is another complicated question, but this is how I explain my Christian faith anyway. That was really more of a question about mercy using capital punishment as an example. Note that the point I was trying to make would apply to Christians who support capital punishment too.
I sat here for I don't know how long and read every single reply. All I can say is WOW. I can only hope to be as enlightened as many of you. I have learned more about Christianity, as well as the Islamic faith, in these few hours than I have ever before in my life. I grew up with parents that were "cafeteria Catholics" that rarely attended church, but even as a child I had a strong faith in God and was always eager to learn more. I hadn't had that sense of yearning in years, but this has really made me want to learn more about both religions. Thanks to all that contributed to this very engaging conversation.
Yes, and I agree that there is only one God, God "the father". But my question remains, how are Jesus and the Holy Spirit also God at the same time? Is there any distinction between "the father" and Jesus and the Holy Spirit, or are they the the same thing? Does Jesus have the same power as God, and if so, does this mean that "the father" could not destroy Jesus if he wanted, despite the fact that He created him? If Jesus is God, then who did he pray to? Himself? How did God sacrifice His "son" if He is His "son"? So God sacrificed himself to forgive our sins? You said in a previous post that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not "on par" with God because God is "the father" and Jesus is "the son" and God "sent" the Holy Spirit...so then how can they be all one entity?? Specifically with Jesus, while He was on earth he lived his day-to-day life as human being like you and me. How then could God be eternal and temporary, infinite and finite, self-sufficient and needy all at the same time? There are so many questions like this regarding the trinity, (did the Trinity became a dual Godhead when Jesus died for 3 days, etc.). Why would God say that salvation comes through believing a really complex concept that nobody can understand? As you have repeatedly emphasized, the Bible calls to the belief in the One true God. The triune God does not seem to function to uphold this belief. "Say: He, Allah, is One. Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; And there is none like unto Him." (Al-Ikhlas 112:1-4) Well this ties into the concept of Original Sin. First of all, that also confuses me. Imagine you committed a crime and you were guility of it, and you were brought forth in court, but your friend Jimmy was found guilty for your crime, and your other friend Steve was punished for the crime Jimmy was found guility of that you committed? This is basically how I see original sin, Adam and Eve ate from the tree, but every newborn baby is guilty for it, and Jesus was punished for the crime. Would any court in the world function like this? God is All-Powerful; He can do things we cannot imagine. But just think, why should God send an innocent man to suffer for the guilty, when God is All-Just? If man is sinful, God can command him to repent and return to God, or the All-Merciful God can simply forgive him. Why should God undermine His own justice and mercy by saying in the first place that all the babies born are sinful because Adam committed an Original Sin and the only way out is that His innocent son must suffer and die? Just imagine, this is to save everyone, even all the fornicators and robbers and murderers of the world. The Islamic view of this issue makes sense to me. Every man or woman is responsible for their own actions. As it says in the Qur'an: "Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit: who goeth astray doth so to his own loss: No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another: nor would We visit with Our wrath until We had sent an apostle [to give warning." (Al-Israa’ 17:15).
The Bible says the same thing. You're misunderstanding the concept of Original Sin. We all choose our own way, outside of God. We've all chosen some separation from God at some point. We are broken and need redemption. As for the Trinity....may I suggest you pick up a book about it written not by an Islamic author but by a Christian one. I think that will help you far better understand it.
