Forms are not really separate, we just label them as so. The exact moment when a raindrop hit the ocean, is it a raindrop or is the it the ocean?
wait...what??? not it's three in one. three forms of one substance. three forms of one God. the analogy absolutely works.
if i put a piece of ice in a hot pan it will melt and then evaporate as steam. it is 3 different forms, but all the same compound (1 hydrogen and 2 oxygen). i think you're meaning the trinity being 3 forms at 1 time, which is true. any takers on my other question: what are the differences between an arab and a persian? what are the key differences between them? how do the kurds, and the turks play in to this aspect? which sect do they generally follow?
I was referring to your first example, and I do know that your second is very much against Islamic law and that most Muslims don’t support that kind of killing. If you’ll allow me to probe a bit deeper on these points, however, how can you punish a person for a crime they haven’t yet committed? If a person has killed once surely that doesn’t mean that they will necessarily kill again. Also, even if the person was a sociopath, for example, who was very likely to kill again, wouldn’t you protect society just as much by locking that person up for life? And wouldn’t it be more merciful to spare his life and to lock him up for life instead? The Bible is also very clear on there being only one God, here is one good passage on that point and the second link below has many other passages listed. (Note that I found that site with a quick search and haven’t checked it thoroughly, so I’m hoping that it’s reasonably error free.) The Greatest Commandment 28One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?" 29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these." 32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=48&chapter=12&version=31 http://www.bible.ca/trinity/trinity-oneness-unity-one-god.htm
On the Trinity, I must admit that I’m puzzled by the controversy about it, from Christians and non-Christians alike. The basics that essentially all Christians agree on are this. The three are all one being. They are all God. Christianity is a monotheistic religion. The issues arise around the question of why we talk about God in 3 parts. This is how I see it. Identifying the Holy Spirit specifically is important because it is through this mechanism that God communicates with us in the most important way. (Note: I realise that I’m opening the door to all kinds of interesting theological debates here, and I’d be happy to discuss them all, but for now I present this as simply my understanding of issue). I believe it is through the Holy Spirit that we are spiritually transformed and guided. Identifying the Holy Spirit specifically and what it does guards against the notion of a detached, impersonal, God. God desires a personal relationship with us, one on one. He’s doesn’t want us to worship him like a lifeless idol, and he doesn’t want mere compliance with his laws. He wants a relationship with us, and that happens most importantly on the spirit level. (Indeed the very purpose of his laws was and is to show us that we can’t comply with them. See Romans for more details. We can’t do it ourselves. We need help from him, and we need to turn to him like a child turns to a father). I believe that you can know God and be a Spirit filled Christian without every having laid eyes on the Bible through the Holy Spirit, and I also believe that you can know every word in the Bible by heart and not know God at all. Jesus was a teacher but most importantly he was the sacrifice that makes our forgiveness and our personal relationship with God possible. Why God did it this way can be understood from events that occurred in the OT. Remember that God asked Abraham to sacrifice his son. This is a key event for all peoples of the book. Genesis 22 9 When they reached the place God had told him about, Abraham built an altar there and arranged the wood on it. He bound his son Isaac and laid him on the altar, on top of the wood. 10 Then he reached out his hand and took the knife to slay his son. 11 But the angel of the LORD called out to him from heaven, "Abraham! Abraham!" "Here I am," he replied. 12 "Do not lay a hand on the boy," he said. "Do not do anything to him. Now I know that you fear God, because you have not withheld from me your son, your only son." http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=genesis 22&version=31 (Note: Muslims believe this happened as well, but they believe that it was Ishmael who God asked Abraham to sacrifice, not Isaac.) This event foreshadows and explains why God later offered His son as a sacrifice for the world. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=50&chapter=3&version=31&context=chapter Does God need a son? No, I don’t think he did. I don’t think he needed Abraham either, or us, or the world, or pink jelly beans, or almost anything else you can think of. This is just the way he chose to communicate with us. And his use of a son, “his only son,” is understandable and logical given the history and traditions laid out in the OT. The message would have been understandable to the people of the day, and to people today too who know the OT. But as I said above, I believe that there is an open invitation and direct channel to know God open to all at the spirit level. Knowing the OT, and the NT for that matter, greatly helps your understanding of God and your spiritual growth, but knowing the Bible it is not essential for knowing God. Are Jesus and the Holy Spirit “on par” with God? In one sense you could say no. Jesus is God’s son and refers to God as his father, clearly not an equal relationship. Jesus also talks of God sending the Holy Spirit, which suggests that God commands the Holy Spirit. (http://www.biblegateway.com/passage...e=25&end_verse=27&version=31&context=context). More accurately, though, the question doesn’t make sense because they are all God. Jesus and the Holy Spirit are just the two primary ways God has chosen to communicate with us. They serve different roles but they are both of God and are God. The analogy likening the three to the 3 phases of H2O is the most accurate and one I think most Christians would agree with. Again, all Christians believe the 3 are one being. Monotheism is an undeniable cornerstone of Christianity, straight from Christ’s word, that all Christians believe in. The controversy amongst Christians seems to start when people start trying to define the three parts of the whole, something that serves little purpose imo. ------ Here’s a more challenging question for the Muslims here. How could any Muslim who believes the Quran is the inspired word of God believe that Christianity is anything but a monotheistic religion? I believe that Islam says that polytheism is an unpardonable sin, but the Quarn says this about Christians: Unity of All Submitters [2:62] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the Christians, and the converts; anyone who (1) believes in GOD, and (2) believes in the Last Day, and (3) leads a righteous life, will receive their recompense from their Lord. They have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. Minimum Requirements For Salvation [5:69] Surely, those who believe, those who are Jewish, the converts, and the Christians; any of them who (1) believe in GOD and (2) believe in the Last Day, and (3) lead a righteous life, have nothing to fear, nor will they grieve. http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/frames/index.html If Islam says that polytheism is an unpardonable sin, then these passages show that according to the Quran Christianity must be a monotheistic religion. And to be equal, here’s a more challenging question for the Christians here. Romans 4:1-3 Abraham Justified by Faith 1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."[a] http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=4&version=31 The question is, what does this passage say about how forgiveness through Christ’s sacrifice works? (It would help to read the first 4 chapters to get the full context).
I think you two may be talking about completely different things. All Christians believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are one being. This isn’t an issue for Christians and most have no idea that anyone on the planet even questions whether they are anything but monotheistic. Monotheism is one of the cornerstones of Christianity and that is stated explicitly in the Bible numerous times. It’s very clear and unambiguous. Can the three forms of God exist at one time? Of course, but that’s a separate question. God can be with millions of people at the same time, and he can be communicating with each of them in different ways.
But Grizzled, as puzzled as you might be by it, it is a 'fact' that many Muslims believe Christianity -- while originally intended as a monotheistic faith -- had evolved into a polytheistic religion. As a Christian, it might not be a complicated concept for you, but to many non-Christians it is.
Infidels, as stated in the suras (passages) in the Qu'ran, means people who do not believe in the book. In other words, people who do not believe in one god. Therefore, the idea that Christians and Jews are infidels is a new phenomena that stems from the control and influence of the extremists and their ability to brainwash poor and starving Muslims. In the Qu'ran, forgot the sura number, the passage which the word infidel appears in, it is referring to the poly-theistic arab nomads that lived in the town of Medina (Muhammad's hometown). And furthermore, the passages states that those who believe in the book (referring to Jews/Christians) should be allowed to live in peace so long as the pay a tribute (tax) to the government.
I have a problem with non-Christians telling Christians what they believe just as I have a problem with non-Muslims telling Muslims what they believe. Ask any Christian if he/she believes in one God or multiple Gods and vanishingly close to 100% of them will say they believe in one God. That’s what we believe. That’s what the Bible says, many, many times, and that’s what we believe. Saying this is not the case is simply a lie. Unfortunately there are Christian leaders, or leaders who call themselves Christians anyway, who tell their congregations false things about Islam. This is dishonest and manipulative. It is also dishonest and manipulative for Muslim leaders to tell their people that Christians are polytheists. If anyone chooses to believe that then that is really no different than a Christian deciding to believe that all Muslims are terrorists even though they say they aren’t and they show you their beliefs showing you that that is not consistent with their faith. Both would be choosing to believe something they know, or should know, is a lie. Further, as I said above it even looks like the Quran acknowledges that the Christians religion is a monotheistic religion. What are the penalties for Muslims for teaching things that are contrary to what the Quran says?
I understand, that's what I meant, there is a misunderstanding here, which is not at all uncommon to have either side believing something about the other which is not factual. However, I think it's more 'ignorance' than there being some sort of a 'malicious intent' involved, although that probably does exist.
Thank you for stating that! I’ll also freely acknowledge that there are corrupt “Christian” leaders who manipulate their people in similar ways. It’s very sad, but in an age where information and discussion are as easy as me sitting here in Calgary and you sitting wherever you are and us discussing this on the internet, the power that these leaders have to deceive is diminishing, and praise God for that!
The ignorance vs. malicious intent question is an interesting one. Even if the intent is malicious the appropriate and often the most effective response is to assume that the stated belief comes from ignorance, and often that is the case even when it shouldn’t be. Often issues that you think someone should have thought through they just haven’t, and they’ve uncritically accepted something they’ve been told even when evidence to the contrary is readily available. We’re all guilty of that in some areas I think, so your point is well taken.
No one is saying that you believe in polytheism. The very fact that you strongly believe in monotheism is why we call the People of the Book to Islam the most in the first place, because you are the closer to our faith than others. However, Trinitarian monotheism can be very confusing and it does make people ask questions whereas there is no argument about Islam's belief in absolute monotheism. Our belief in one God with no partners is indisputable. You're correct in saying that the Qur'an teaches that the People of the Book were originally pure monotheists as well. However, the key word is originally. We believe that the original teachings of Jesus were divinely inspired and correct, but that today's Christianity isn't the same as it was back then. The fact that the Bible calls mankind to pure monotheism is also indicative to us that there is no trinity, and God "the father" is the only God.
Good stuff. Challenging stuff. Remember that others in the NT are credited with their faith also. Gentiles and Jews, alike. "God shows no favoritism." Here Abraham is credited with his faith BEFORE the religious ritual of circumcision is carried out. Grizzled, as I was writing this I just got news a friend died....a friend who volunteered with youth ministry. He was with a kid from my old church and killed...and a drunk driver hit his car. He died on the scene. The kid survived but broke his collarbone. Prayers welcome.
