I don’t have much time, but there are some very interesting discussions going on here so I’m going to make some time. This will need some explanation for a most people. Some Muslims believe that Christianity is a polytheistic faith. They believe that Christians worship God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit as 3 separate Gods. The three are all of God, of course, and Christianity is strictly monotheistic and states this in numerous places in the bible. I had never heard anyone suggest otherwise until only a few years ago, so it was, and is, hard for me to imagine where this idea came from. I’m sure we could get into some interesting discussion about how the Holy Spirit and Jesus relate to God, but perhaps a simple way to understand it is to say that these are two ways God chose to communicate with us. Christ is more than that, of course, he was crucified as a sacrifice for our sins, in the Old Testament sense. Christians believe that this is how we are forgiven for our sins. We could never make enough sacrifices in the OT sense to make up for all our sins, and for our continued sins. (Note that this was part of the original plan, as Romans says.) A sinful person does not deserve to go to heaven. We’re all inherently sinners by our nature, (and by that I mean that no one is perfectly sinless), so the only way we can get be forgiven for our sins is through the sacrifice Christ made on the cross. The Holy Spirit is a much more direct form of transformation and communication on the spirit level. Muslims also believe that there is a spirit that comes down on them when they pray, and the Muslims I know who I’ve spoken to about this say they can physically feel it. It’s not just theoretical. Given that similarity I’m not sure how the Holy Spirit came to be seen as a separate God by some Muslims. Some Muslims also believe in a good and a bad “angel” (I’m not sure if that’s the proper word) that encourage them to do good, or temp them to do bad. Shiites also believe that the leadership of Islam was passed down a hereditary line, and I believe that they believe that this person has greater knowledge and insight than ordinary man, a bit like Papal infallibility in my understanding, but please correct me if I’m wrong. So in the end there are a lot of questions about how monotheistic some groups of Muslims are too. In the end, however, the surprising thing for me was how similar the “corruptions” in the organised religion of each faith are, and these “corruptions” go back to the earliest times for Christians, as most of us know, and for Muslims too. I’m paraphrasing but there was a Muslim leader who just after Mohammed’s death said, “If you worship Mohammed know that he is dead. If you worship God know that he lives forever.” So worshipping Mohammed instead of God was a problem even back then. I also have a question about one of your later points. That’s a great line, and it’s one that most Christians would agree with, even if it is one that a lot of us struggle with. My question is, given this teaching how can a Muslim ever be justified in killing another person, under any circumstances?
does it not LIMIT God to say he CAN'T beget??? i'm not sure i'm comfortable saying that God can't do something, outside of the tricky word games about creating big rocks too heavy to lift. the trinity is pretty complex...i personally like the st. patrick shamrock analogy. there are 3 different leaves on a shamrock...but it's still just one shamrock. and i agree entirely...there are NONE comparable to Him. i went to Friday prayers at a mosque on the west side of Houston about a year ago. i didn't understand most of what was going on, because i don't speak the language. but i did stay after and talk to the leaders and ask some questions. they were very gracious and provided me some literature to study, including a Quran. the man next to me during prayers shook my hand, smiled and invited me back. good people. i think the muslim position completely misunderstands and misstates christian theology...but the people i met were sincere and kind.
MadMax, You're right that there is a lot of misunderstanding about Christianity in the Muslim community. A few years back, I made a point of taking a couple of courses over at UH in Christian theology, because I wanted to alleviate my own ignorance of Christianity. I took a basic course in Christian theology and another one in Christian ethics, which I found to be very enlightening; it was money and effort well-spent. I think the Trinity is a bit confusing to non-Christians in general, and I myself didn't know that the Trinity was essentially "three parts of the one God" until a few years ago, when I had a discussion about it with a close friend of mine I have known since high school -- who's a devout Christian -- and he was kind enough to teach me about it.
its not limiting God, rather, we believe God is worthy of only the most perfect, noble, and sublime attributes. to say He had a son or needs a son is actually a sign of deficiency and not self-sufficiency. seems we agree on a lot of the concepts, but disagree on some of its applications i honestly have tried to understand things like the trinity, but i just can't. ive tried reading the bible verses on it, talking to christians about it, but the bottom line in my head is i cant believe in something so complex, especially when its supposed to be the most basic and fundamental facet of our life. to me the one of the beauties of finding islam is the simplicity of its creed, a 3 year old can understand the concept of one God, and many ppl can even arrive at this conclusion on their own - i believe God created us with that intuition. i just don't feel the same holds true for the complex concept of the trinity, and thus cannot bring myself to believe in it. have you had a chance to read the quran? id be interested in hearing your thoughts
i have not read it cover to cover. i have read it in large chunks. i think the word Son is misused here. or misunderstood. even still, i don't see how this diminishes God in any way. i don't believe God to be simple or easily understood. He is far beyond any thing my mind can fathom. The more I learn of him, the less I realize I actually understand. I know this very simply...I know that as I get closer to him, I'm different. And I like that person a lot better than the old person. And I know that it changes and has changed behaviors as I'm different at my core. And that life is far better than the one I had without him.
very interesting back and forth here. one way that i have heard the trinity being explained is through water. you have steam, water, and ice. all 3 have the same composition (kinda) but all 3 are different. i think the shamrock is a good analogy to use as well. my question for you guys is this: ive gained a better understanding about the differences between shia and sunni, but what are the differences between an arab and a persian? i know that persia was an empire that spanned from iran to the west bank, but what are the key differences between them? why do persians seem to hate arabs, or have i percieved this wrong? also, how do the kurds, and the turks play in to this aspect? which sect do they generally follow?
that analogy doesn't work...trinity is three in one, the example you gave is one in three (water is 1 and can take three separate forms whereas trinity is supposedly three entities simultaneously making up 1 God) and for the muslim brothers who are participating in this thread, may Allah reward you for your intentions to spread the true message of Islam. however, i'm not sure this is the best way to go about giving da'wah. when you tell others to just have a free-for-all question and answer session about islam, you are letting them direct the conversation, and they will most likely lead you off track. our duty is to spread the idea of tawheed (the oneness of Allah) , because that is what separates Islam from any other religion. before you can discuss the details of the religion such as our treatment of women or the prohibition of pork or anything else we must first emphasize tawheed because it is the basis for the rest of our religion. As Allah says in the Qur'an, "And we have sent to every nation a Messenger saying Worship Allaah alone and avoid the Taghoot " [An-Nahl:36] The messengers were sent to spread tawheed, and so should we, insha'Allah.
I really appreciate the dialogue here. I the past I understood islam from reading several different perspectives without having read the quran for myself. As a Christian who teaches the Bible to others I have had difficulty understanding the Muslim view of salvation, mercy and justice. It is still my understanding that a Muslim must somehow circumvent divine justice with good deeds. I find this hard to understand because Christianity has a much different view of salvation. Good deeds could never compensate for our guilt. It is hard for me (by my own bias) to think a Muslim judge would show mercy to a violator of the faith in this way (good deeds). If Allah is the judge of all, then I would expect him to be the most just of all. I do not understand how good deeds can subvert justice. To forgive someone is different than pardon. I can lay down my resentment towards a violent rapist, but I understand the need for justice. That is why in the Christian perspective it is essential that Christ die. He satifisfied the claims of justice on behalf of those who believe. That is why we call it salvation by faith in Christ. If Allah is most just, then I hope for all Muslims that their view of justice is correct. I would not want to stand before the most just judge of sin who is Holy and Righteous and expect my good deeds to sway Him to pardon me. He could not be most just and do this; justice would no longer exist. Thank you all for the insight.
