Well that is our fundamental difference. I feel the right to self defense is more important than that. In the same way I feel a woman's right to her own body is so important that it should be legal for her to terminate an unwanted fetus. You do not think the right to self defense applies as much as I do so we will never agree on any of the other arguments.
We are talking about self defense in the home and you trot out a picture of soldiers doing a house to house in Iraq? Somehow, a doesn't seem like enough.
Police officers (professionals) kick down doors with their handguns and that was the circumstance I was referring to. You apparently don't know the difference between home defense and military operations, so whose "knowledge of the tools is limited?"
They are preparing to fight inside of a house. Are you saying they are using the wrong weapons? You told me your shotgun is superior.
Talk about moving the goalposts, the discussion we were having involved personal home defense, not SWAT teams. Hyperbole much?
Against a home invader, a shotgun is the only tool I would need to protect myself and my family, pretty much no matter what weapon the intruder brought.
First off that picture is way to big so I swapped it. Secondly if a shotgun is the best weapon for killing someone inside a house (like you claim) why are they using rifles?
That may work fine for you. I prefer to have the best tool around, and what the professionals use. You should email them, let them know they need shotguns to improve their chances of surviving
The swat wouldn't use shotguns if there were bystanders around that might be hit by the scatter. That would be the case if there were perps and homeowners present. If it was just homeowner vs. perp there wouldn't be as much danger of that happening.
Their main goal (SWAT teams, not soldiers) is not to kill, but to have stopping power in an emergency. They also want precision, which you get with a rifle, but not so much with a shotgun. A shotgun is a much more efficient killing weapon in close quarters, like you would see in a domicile. It also, due to its relative lack of precision, has the ability to hit a target even if the shot is not perfectly aimed. These attributes make the shotgun a fantastic choice for home defense as the defender wants to be able to easily hit their target, cause maximum damage, and hopefully take down the target with one shot. This is possible with a rifle in the hands of a trained marksman or SWAT member, but for the ordinary homeowner, the shotgun is the better tool.
This is the key. You are not a "professional" and have no need for the tools a professional uses, at least not for the reasons you are espousing. I'm sure there are plenty of other reasons you desire assault weapons, but home defense is not one of them. For a homeowner, a pump action shotgun is the second best way to get rid of a potential home invader (a barking dog is the best way). There aren't many criminals who will hear a shell being chambered in my shotgun and then stick around for any length of time. Your debate style is schitzophrenic. You keep making one argument (self defense) and then turning it into another (that's not what professionals use). Maybe you would make more headway in your debates if you could stick to the topic at hand.
GladiatoRowdy, you've met me before you know I'm not crazy...I prefer the shotgun for a situation where it is 1 intruder,...I love shotguns...If you told me I could only afford one gun this would be it...BUT the AR15 is such a great choice for multiple intruders (as often happens)...The .223 is a near exclusive round which has been shown to be much safer indoors than many shotguns or pistol rounds due to the .223 near exclusive crazy fragmentation tendency...The result is dramatic stopping power while not being dangerous regarding penetration of hard objects (walls, shhetrock) This means neighbors are safer while you repel multiple intruders. The AK round is pretty much the opposite. NOT the dramatic stopping power BUT very dangerous penetration. The point I am trying to make is the AR15 makes a very good point as a home defense carbine if you are considering multiple intruders while being safe for NOT over-penetrating. Personally, I could care less for AK's ...not good for home defense, not accurate beyond 50 yards. but I will beware the slippery slope of those who seek greater and greater control and infringment of rights.
Having used M16s in the army, I agree that the AR15 is a very good, easy to use weapon, but I wouldn't know how it compares to the shotgun. I reckon I could teach a 13 year old how to strip, clean, handle jams and fire with decent accuracy an AR15 within a few hours at a range. I think it's definitely easier to use than a pistol. My problem with legal AR15s would be that they do their job as killing machines too well, but I digress...
http://www.soundsnap.com/node/12534 Even more effective than an AR-15 for any intruder is simply this sound. Once they hear it, criminals will bug out nearly 100% of the time.
The shotgun, similar to the AR-15, will not penetrate into a neighbor's house, as a rule. The real point, and the reason I got drawn into this debate, was because I made the statement that US citizens can acquire far more firepower than they need to defend their home. It is a fact that any citizen that does not have a criminal or serious psychiatric background could amass enough arms to defend themselves from a small army for a time. Then, fmullegan started talking about soldiers and SWAT teams.
I'm no gun savant but this is what I always understood to be the best case scenario for home protection. Apparently, fmullegan is such a dead-eye shot he is unconcerned with bullets careening through the walls into his children's room or neighbor's house. Though the chances of most of us posting on this BBS ever needing to defend your home against any intruder is pretty slim. I know it happens but check the study in Atlanta I posted earlier.
FB, how much do you seriously think shotguns scatter? This isn't even close to an issue. I don't understand why people who just flat out don't know, try to say this kinda stuff.
You misread his post. He is saying the 5.56 mm is best for not going into other rooms due to its fragmentation.
Please justify this. A shotgun uses projectiles that do not expand or fragment. They have far less penetration than a handgun or a rifle in ballistic gelatin which is the standard the FBI uses for effectiveness. So please tell me how the shotgun is better when the science totally disagrees.
