Hatred of America Internationally?

One of the ideas of our current system is that the rich are subject to the same laws, and obligations as the less fortunate or less well off.

As far as America being unique it's true. That's been talked about, and someone else mentioned it's not just being rich but rubbing other people's nose in it.

Rich people have more money, than poor people, but not all rich people run around shouting about how that makes them special. Those that do are seen as arrogant, and often disliked by others. Should Rich people say that other people are not their equals?

Yes we have more power than others. That still doesn't mean we are better in any way other than having more might.

The U.S. also does do a lot of good. I don't think that can be debated. I think the problems is when we do something unpopular, people like Tom Delay start saying that we are special, and have a different destiny and thus we are justified in doing things.

I don't mind trying to take leadership in areas where we can be helpful. I agree some people will hate the U.S. just because they have most toys, but arrogance and manifest destiny talk can only make it worse.

 

Destination for what? Savior of the world? I can't testify for all the others, but I dont think Chinese ever think so. And how do you know other nations CERTAINLY do? Is there anything specially American gives you that ability that I don't know?

All men are created equal, all nations don't. Maybe UN should be built on Hayesstreet? Yes, America is the most powerful, and it often does thing AMERICANs think what's the Best for other nations. (It does many wonderful thing BTW) While you can do anything, try fix the social welfare system before trying to fix others marriage maybe? Isn't it Bush himself who said America can't be everything for all the people?

 

Compared to the resources any other country puts into international stability, yes.

Read your leaders rhetoric. It is filled with notions of China taking their 'rightful place' at the head of the table. It is filled with notions of 'the oldest' and 'the most advanced' civilization. And is it filled with rhetoric about the 'destiny' of the Chinese people.

I read a lot.

Sure, its the same qualities that have put us in the dominant position in the first place.

Yep. Don't just look at US rhetoric. Look at which country is called on most for crisis after crisis. No one calls on Monaco for help.

Secretary General Elvin Hayes. I like that.

If we didn't have to spend billions bailing other countries out, and billion on military expenditures to stop international aggression, it would be easy to fix our welfare system.

 

I don't even think America is hated internationally, but I can certainly understand why people will be a bit put off by SOME Americans' attitude now. I don't know what you are reading, but cite me FIVE NORMS of the chinese foreign policy, see how China perceives herself as savior of the world. As for the rest, I don't have much to say, happy saving the world baby.

 

HayesStreet,
A little humility, please?

I know that you are not arguing that we are perfect, but we make plenty of mistakes. Whatever caused our economy to excel: capitalism, WWII, worker productivity, natural resources, tax structure, etc. do not necessarily allow us to claim the high-road on morals, and it does not imbue us with omniscience. We would do well to listen to the other billions of humans who we share this planet with. We won't agree with all, but we certainly have much to learn.

 

He asked.

No doubt we are not perfect. No doubt we have made some HUGE mistakes. But I really don't see what the problem is saying we're great.

Is it wrong for someone to say they believe they are the best at what they do?

Is it wrong to say you can do things some others can't?

Is it wrong to point out that people turn to you to resolve problems they can't themselves?

Is that going to piss some people off? Sure. Is it wrong? No.

We might all be created equal, but that doesn't mean we all achieve equally in our lives or our endeavors.

 

The Seventh Fleet sits off the Formosa Straits so that China doesn't try take Taiwan by force. US forces are deployed in Europe so the Europeans can spend their money on their healthcare instead of their own defense force to maintain their own stability. We have to maintain forces in the Middle East to protect the world's oil supplies. I'm not put off by that. I understand we are the most capable nation and as the world's only Superpower we should use that power for the benefit of all people's. I disagree when someone says we are 'arrogant' or filled with 'self-appointed grandeur' as if its some illusion.

 

That's the best you got? No one denys you your right as a proud American, no one dispute US is the only superpower now. No one even dispute US did plenty of good. But when you claim you know other countries policy or thinking as CERTAINLY something, yet you clearly don't even speak that language, nor are you an expert on any of these; and you cite every example from US perspective, this won't help you understand the question at hand.

 

It's funny how people with bigger guns think they are superior to others.

I don't want to dig into American's old wounds, but when you are claiming that other countries are not your equals. Could you at least think about Vietnam? I don't know how can you be "the savior of the world" when you can't beat a bunch of weaklings.

 

I agree. There's a growing resentment among many countries that we are stiffling their industries in order to promote our own businesses' self interests. We've pretty much put Latin America as our b**** continent for the past century...

I doubt on the whole, everyone hates America, but when we do something that disrupts the status quo, like a major unprovoked conflict or the balking of an international treaty, the growing resentment of what we have and what they have not will begin to rear its ugly head.

Plus the stereotype of the lazy, ignorant, and selfish American foreign people have of us (for our part we indirectly propegate it with our mass media...). We speak one language and have no inclination to learn another, while many countries requires their people to learn more. Our borders touch two oceans and two continents while other countries have many more countries to border and aren't neccessarily as stable financially or millitarily. Although our world is getting smaller through communication and trade, Americans on the whole still don't have a solid grasp of how our actions influence the international community. Whether it is the lack of time or apathy is not the issue. The American work force works more hours than any other industrialized nation, but a stereotype doesn't necessitate truth...

 

Not at all. But ask yourself honestly what, exactly, are we best at? We have the biggest economy and not coincidentally, the biggest military. What else are we the proven leaders in? Research, possibly. The environment? Hmmm. Family? Social responsibility? Spiritual growth?

I know that there are Americans who value other attributes, but our prevailing motiviation seems to be financial success. It seems that many of us judge countries based on the same metric. It is not a given that this should be 'the goal' for all of mankind. Our financial success should not delude us into thinking that we have all of the solutions for the world, nor should we impose our will on others when it is entirely self-serving.

 

Great post Cohen. Also while perhaps research we have a relatively high infant mortality rate, we don't have the longest life expetancy, so healthcare is out as well.

This is tough question because like you've said not every American possesses the qualities that upset other people about the U.S. Yet some do, and sometimes our govt. does.

At the same time not everyone has such a negative opinion. I guess we just accept the generalizations for the sake of debate in this thread.

 

Don't know why you want to go there, Panda, but ok...

I'm not a specialist on the Vietnam War, but here goes my take:
* I don't think that millions of Vietnamese supplied with weapons by China should be considered 'weaklings';
* The threat of war with China kept the US's options limited;
* The lack of American public support created difficulties;
* The lack of Vietnamese public support created difficulties (many called it the American War, yet Americans thought we were defending the country. Later on, the Vietnamese would find how oppressive the communist regime would be);
* War was never formally declared, which probably created another set of obstacles.

Using hindsight, it is clear now that the war was a mistake for the US, and many additional errors were made along the way. It appears that the Vietnamese did not really want our help and were willing to sacrifice 1,100,000 to defeat us (the US lost about 60,000, South Vietnam another 220,000).

It was a bad situation. What would the US have needed to do to win, commit genocide? Fight a war with China?

Many lessons were learned and will not be repeated.

 

The Vietnamese war was more of a war to "contain communism in the far east" to serve the interest of "the free world" than helping the Vietnamese. But your take does suggest maybe US should at least think twice when taking on such an unilateral action, right? I appreciate your posts overall.

 

Originally posted by michecon
The Vietnamese war was more of a war to "contain communism in the far east" to serve the interest of "the free world" than helping the Vietnamese.

Yes, the domino theory. But the basis of that is to protect 'the free world', which would include the Vietnamese...at the time.

But your take does suggest maybe US should at least think twice when taking on such an unilateral action, right?

It wasn't really unilateral. The South Koreans, Australians, Thai, Canadians, New Zealanders and South Vietnamese fought beside us and the French before us.

Regardless, I am certainly in favor of fastidious contemplation before taking unilateral action.

I appreciate your posts overall.

Uh, thanks?

Likewise.

 

The reason some people in the UK and the rest of Europe criticize the US is because ofhow cocky the US is. Most of Europe think that European matters are EUROPEAN matters. That said I love that for know The US and UK are hand in hand.

also people in Europe look at the American dream and dont see the lower class familys struggling to pay bills. I was very lucky moving over from the UK in that both my parents have very good jobs. People get here and dont have that safety net like a socialist coutry has and they struggle.

 

Cohen:
I brought up Vietnam as an example and reminder that humility is better than alienation from self elevation. It's a defeat to the America no matter what angle is used to interpret it. I bet that Americans had the same thoughts that they can assume absolute control as the "savior of the world" in Vietnam because America was a superpower and held those Viets in contempt, they suffered a defeat as they underestimated their opponents. The same attitude can be rehearsed and result in another defeat in the future, as arrogance breeds underestimation of situations. To me it's always better to have a humble take on life regardless of current status. It wins you at least, caution and respect.

 

Ok.

I'm not sure why its imperative that I speak Chinese to be able to read translations or analysis of the country's policies or outlook. I have actually done quite a lot of research on China and so base my opinions on that, not on accounts from USA Today et al. If you dispute my perspective then say why, and we can continue.

Political power grows out of the barrel of a gun -Mao Tse-tung

Correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure he was Chinese? And its really the bigger refrigerators, not the bigger guns, that make us superior ...

US Armed Forces won every engagement over platoon size in 12 years of war. I think that's pretty impressive. But there are lessons to learn from Vietnam. Don't fight to hold, fight to win. We should have crushed the NVA and rolled into N Vietnam instead of playing footsie for 12 years. Just like Somalia, and suprise suprise just like Iraq. If we had simply steamrolled Saddam out in '91 we wouldn't even be having this discussion now.

As for Vietnam being 'weaklings' see above re: China takes a beating after invading Vietnam.

What are we leaders in? Well, we seem to be leaders in any endeavor we unite behind. We are leaders in keeping international stability. We are leaders in charitable contributions to other countries crisises. We are leaders in information technology (lest we forget that the US CREATED the internet). We are the ONLY country to have put someone on another celestial body. We are far and away better in our environmental record that countries of similar size/power (just look at the environmental chaos in the former Soviet Union or in China). We are leaders in opportunity for our own population. We are the leader of the world's economy. And despite many mistakes we are the leader of democratic capitalism.

As even you have pointed out, Cohen, it is much easier to have a 35 hour work week and spend more time with your kids when the US is paying for your security and your cheap perscriptions etc etc. IF Europe was paying to secure its own oil and paying for its own security I can't think of where they would get the cash except from cutting other programs like healthcare, just as in the US.

Nope. I'm not saying we have all the answers, or that we can't learn anything from anyone else, or that we should impose ourselves when it is ENTIRELY self-serving. But that doesn't mean we should ignore a problem when other disagree either. Nor that we should change our policies merely on the basis that other countries don't like it.

Everyone makes the same answers. US healthcare is the first one. As i've said before and will say again, if we didn't have to bear the cost of securing things like Europe and Japan's oil, or Taiwan's security, we would have plenty of cash for our own healthcare system. It is a classic example of how we put the greater good for all people's about our own, and how we believe our system enables most individuals IN our country to succeed on their own.

Those were the same thing. Containing communism and saving the South Vietnamese from communism went hand in hand. As it happened they got firsthand experience into what life under the communist boot was like, and it wasn't favorable.

Or we should not hesitate. Instead once we determine the emergence of an actual enemy we should crush them with extreme prejudice.

Yeah, most of Europe thinks European matters are European matters. That's why they took care of Bosnia, right? That's why they waited for the US to lead NATO expansion, right? The Europeans cannot even get their announced plans for a EU Defense Force off the ground. You know WHY? Because they don't want to PAY FOR IT. They'd rather spend their money on domestic programs, and let the US defend them, and THEN HAVE THE GALL to criticise our 'meddling,' LOL.

Well, this isn't a socialist system. You get an equal opportunity. People will launch jibes at me for saying so. But our history is filled with waves of poor immigrants who came and made a better life than what they left. And their subsequent generations have gone on to help build this country, and have reaped the rewards as is appropriate. If you want to exchange unlimited opportunity for a 'safety net' and a life of mediocre opportunity, that is ok. Europe is the place to be.

The simple fact is that Vietnam was not a military defeat but a political one. And if memory serves it was the US against China, Vietnam, and the Soviet Union (who at the time was equally as powerful as the US). Again though, I think you are right that there are lessons to be learned.

I'll also point out that even after our 'failure' in Vietnam, China didn't seem to get your point either. Unless I'm mistaken (as michecon pointed out I don't speak Chinese) China INVADED Vietnam in 1979 and got their nose bloodied pretty well before withdrawling. And the Chinese weren't fighting on the other side of the globe either, but next door.

'Fortune favors the bold.' You say arrogance, I say confidence. The perspective that Americans can accomplish any goal is a strength, not a weakness. That pretty much sums up the cultural differences in our perspective.