Weren't you aspiring to be a lawyer or something like that? Here was your original argument which I responded to: I pointed out that Durant averaged more rebounds only b/c he played more minutes, and Lebron averaged more than twice as many offensive rebounds as Durant. So it's curious that your argument has now shifted from rebounding to running off screens. Is this how you debate? A series of strawman arguments?
Do you seriously not see how that is relevant to what you were trying to argue? You said Lebron gets more offensive rebounds which to you is working harder. I responded that I think it has more to do with him having more of an attacking game and playing closer to the rim which leads to more offensive rebounds because he is closer to the rim. You then highlighted me saying that implying that playing closer to the basket means you are working harder than someone that does not. I replied to that by pointing out that even if you aren't attacking the basket and getting points in the paint you can still work hard on the perimeter by running off of screens and fighting to get open. How is that a straw man argument?
I'm assuming you know that this argument is based off of Lebron working harder to get boards and as a result being more tired and not being able to score efficiently.
http://blitzsportsnetwork.com/2012/06/kobe-bryant-vs-lebron-james-comparison-updated-in-2012/ Spoiler Comparing individual players, and individual play takes a multilateral comparison process. When trying to prove that a player is better, you MUST prove that he consistently out performs the other player in the comparison with regularity. For instance, highlighting a handful of great performances doesn’t give proper perspective. You must look at how a player consistently performs over the course of his career. Remember, you know the context of each player’s career so please don’t leave comments “you must have forgot Kobe wasn’t a starter as a rookie” et cetera. It’s also important to consider games played because one player may have reached a marker through playing more games, and you really should do some simple math to figure out which guy is on a more torrid pace. I also decided to add ratios for those who don’t want to compute the difference themselves. Moderate intelligence need be applied while reading this list of facts, please. Most of you already know this, so let’s get down to it. Kobe vs LeBron, let’s take an in-depth look, and start from the beginning: You can’t deny facts folks, don’t even try…. Kobe Bryant: 1,161 regular season games LeBron James: 689 regular season games Kobe Bryant: 220 playoff games LeBron James: 115 playoff games Rookie of the Year LeBron James: Yes Kobe Bryant: No All-Rookie First Team LeBron James: Yes Kobe Bryant: No NBA Finals MVP’s LeBron James: 1 in 3 tries Kobe Bryant: 2 in 7 tries NBA League MVP’s LeBron James: 3 in 9 years Kobe Bryant: 1 in 16 years Regular season Career Points Per Game Kobe: 25.4ppg LeBron: 27.6ppg Regular Season Career Rebounds Per Game Kobe: 5.3reb LeBron: 7.2reb Regular Season Career Assists Per Game Kobe: 4.7ast LeBron: 6.9ast Regular Season Career Steals Per Game Kobe: 1.5stl LeBron: 1.7stl Regular Season Career Blocks Per Game Kobe: 0.5blk LeBron: 0.8blk Regular Season Career Turnovers Per Game Kobe: 3.0tov LeBron: 3.3tov Regular Season Career Shooting Percentage Kobe: 45.3% LeBron: 48.3% Regular Season Career Free Throw Percentage Kobe: 83.8% LeBron: 74.6% Regular Season Career Three Point Percentage Kobe: 33.7% LeBron: 33.1% Regular Season Percentage Of Career Points Scored On Free Throws Kobe: 25.1% LeBron: 23.8% Regular season Games with at least 80 points: Kobe Bryant: 1 (1 time every 1,161 games) LeBron James: 0 (never) Regular season Games with at least 50 points: Kobe Bryant: 24 (1 time every 48 games) LeBron James: 9 (1 time every 77 games) Regular season Games with at least 40 points: Kobe Bryant: 112 (1 time every 10 games) LeBron James: 48 (1 time every 14 games) Regular season Games with at least 30 points: Kobe Bryant: 384 (1 time every 3 games) LeBron James: 282 (1 time every 2 games) Career Player Efficiency Rating LeBron James: 27.2 Kobe Bryant: 23.4 Career True Precision Rating Regular Season LeBron James: -10.5 TPR Kobe Bryant: -1,381.5 TPR Scoring titles LeBron James: 1 Kobe Bryant: 2 Seasons at 30 points per game or higher: LeBron James: 2 Kobe Bryant: 3 Regular season 2012: Kobe took 167 more shots, LeBron scored 67 more points 2011: Kobe took 154 more shots, LeBron scored 33 more points 2010: Kobe took 41 more shots, LeBron scored 288 more points 2009: Kobe took 99 more shots, LeBron scored 103 more points Since the 2008-2009 season an alarming trend has been transpiring, Kobe shooting many more shots, but scoring less points than LeBron. Pretty alarming if you ask me. I mean damn, if LeBron was shooting more than Kobe that would be one thing, but he’s not. Defensive player of the year: LeBron James: Runner up twice Kobe Bryant: not even close Kobe Bryant is #10 all time in regular season points per game. LeBron James is #3 all time in regular season points per game. Kobe Bryant is not among the top 100 players all time in regular season assists per game. LeBron James is. He’s #28 in regular season assists per game all time. LeBron James has led the NBA in regular season win shares 4 times, Kobe has never led the NBA in regular season win shares or even come close. Kobe Bryant doesn’t have one season that ranks in the top 90 for win shares, LeBron James’s 2008-2009 season ranks 17th all time in win shares for a given season. LeBron’s 2009-2010 season ranks 24th all time in win shares for a season. LeBron’s 2005-2006 season ranks 63rd all time in win shares for a season. LeBron’s 2010-2011 season ranks 85th all time in win shares for a season. Kobe Bryant averages 10.1 win shares per season, LeBron James averages 14.8 win shares per season. That’s a huge gap when it pertains to carrying a team. Regular season Seasons under 50% shooting Kobe Bryant: 16 LeBron James: 6 Regular season Seasons under 48% shooting: Kobe Bryant: 16 LeBron James: 3 Regular season Seasons over 50% shooting: Kobe Bryant: 0 LeBron James: 3 Regular season Seasons at 48% shooting or higher: Kobe Bryant: 0 LeBron James: 6 Regular season Games with under 50% shooting LeBron James: 365 (2 times every 4 games) Kobe Bryant: 721 (2 times every 3 games) Regular season Games with under 48% shooting LeBron James: 348 (3 times every 6 games) Kobe Bryant: 691 (3 times every 5 games) Regular season Games with under 46% shooting LeBron James: 292 (7 times every 17 games) Kobe Bryant: 611 (7 times every 13 games) Regular season Games with under 44% shooting LeBron James: 232 (5 times every 15 games) Kobe Bryant: 517 (5 times every 11 games) Regular season Games with under 42% shooting LeBron James: 183 (5 times every 19 games) Kobe Bryant: 450 (5 times every 13 games) Regular season Games with under 40% shooting LeBron James: 134 (5 times every 26 games) Kobe Bryant: 365 (5 times every 16 games) Regular season Games with under 35% shooting LeBron James: 74 (5 times every 47 games) Kobe Bryant: 221 (5 times every 26 games) Regular season Games with under 30% shooting LeBron James: 36 (5 times every 96 games) Kobe Bryant: 116 (5 times every 50 games) As you can clearly see, Kobe Bryant’s off shooting nights come with much more regularity than LeBron James. That means Kobe Bryant is not a better scorer if he has this many off shooting nights with so much more regularity. Kobe may be more versatile, but his versatility hasn’t led to better consistency. Regular season Games with 12 assists or more LeBron James: 40 (1 time every 17 games) Kobe Bryant: 20 (1 time every 58 games) Regular season Games with 10 assists or more LeBron James: 110 (1 time every 6 games) Kobe Bryant: 70 (1 time every 17 games) Regular season Games with less than 3 assists LeBron James: 26 (1 time every 27 games) Kobe Bryant: 248 (1 time every 5 games) Regular season Games with less than 2 assists LeBron James: 7 (1 time every 98 games) Kobe Bryant: 128 (1 time every 9 games) Regular season Games with 0 assists: LeBron James: 2 (1 time every 344 games) Kobe Bryant: 50 (1 time every 23 games) The assists are very interesting at this point in time because Phil Jackson came out and made a statement to the effect that he “tried” talking Kobe into playing “more like LeBron James”. Regular season Games with 12 rebounds or more LeBron James: 54 (1 time every 13 games) Kobe Bryant: 29 (1 time every 40 games) Regular season Games with 10 rebounds or more LeBron James: 142 (1 time every 5 games) Kobe Bryant: 102 (1 time every 11 games) Regular season Games with 40 points and under 50% shooting LeBron: 7 of 48 games 40+ points Kobe: 49 of 107 games 40+ points Yes, that’s right, almost half of Kobe’s 40 point games involved missing more shots than made ones. Regular season Team Record in games with 30+ shot attempts LeBron: 14-12 (.538) Kobe: 44-57 (.435) I’m gonna take a wild guess that this is why Phil Jackson “tried” to get Kobe to play “more like LeBron.” If Kobe was more consistently efficient this wouldn’t be an issue. This is why you cannot ignore missed shots, they lead to losses. You must build amazing teams around a main shot taker who’s not a consistently efficient scorer if you want to win championships. It also proves the theory that LeBron, being the efficient player he is, should probably shoot a little more. Regular season 50 point games with under 45% shooting LeBron James: 0 Kobe Bryant: 3 Regular season Seasons with at least 30% 3 point shooting: Kobe: 14 LeBron: 8 Regular season Seasons with at least 31% 3 point shooting: Kobe: 12 LeBron: 8 Regular season Seasons with at least 33% 3 point shooting: Kobe: 8 LeBron: 6 Regular season Games with 36 shot attempts or more: LeBron: 1 Kobe: 21 Of Kobe’s 21 games with 36 shots or more, he shot under 50% 16 times, 45% or lower 10 times, under 40% 4 times, this is the DEFINITION of what people would term as “selfish”. We all know this is Kobe just being Kobe. We’ve all learned to accept this, but his fans don’t understand how that hinders certain areas of team basketball. It’s OK, most of us get it. Now to the NBA Playoffs NBA Playoffs Career Points Per Game Kobe: 25.6ppg LeBron: 28.5ppg NBA Playoffs Career Assists Per Game Kobe: 4.7ast LeBron: 6.7ast NBA Playoffs Career Rebounds Per Game Kobe: 5.1reb LeBron: 8.7reb NBA Playoffs Career Shooting Percentage Kobe: 44.8% LeBron: 46.9% NBA Playoffs Career Three Point Percentage Kobe: 33.1% LeBron: 31.2% NBA Playoffs Career Free Throw Shooting Percentage: Kobe: 81.6% LeBron: 74.5% NBA Playoffs Career Steals Per Game: Kobe: 1.4stl LeBron: 1.7stl NBA Playoffs Career Blocks Per Game: Kobe: 0.7blk LeBron: 0.9blk NBA Playoffs Career Player Efficiency Rating: Kobe: 22.4 LeBron: 27.1 NBA Playoffs Career True Precision Rating: Kobe: -179.0 LeBron: +10.0 NBA Playoffs 50 point or higher games Kobe: 1 (1 time every 220 games) LeBron: 0 (never) NBA Playoffs 40 point or higher games Kobe: 13 (1 time every 17 games) LeBron: 11 (1 time every 10 games) NBA Playoffs 30 point or higher games Kobe: 88 (1 time every 3 games) LeBron: 53 (1 time every 2 games) NBA Playoffs Games with 12 or more assists LeBron James: 8 (1 time every 14 games) Kobe Bryant: 1 (1 time every 220 games) NBA Playoffs Games with 10 or more assists: LeBron James: 16 (1 time every 7 games) Kobe Bryant: 9 (1 time every 24 games) NBA Playoffs Games with less than 3 assists: LeBron James: 5 (1 time every 23 games) Kobe Bryant: 46 (1 time every 5 games) NBA Playoffs Games with less than 2 assists: LeBron James: 0 (never) Kobe Bryant: 29 (1 time every 8 games) NBA Playoffs Games with 0 assists: LeBron James: 0 (never) Kobe Bryant: 11 (1 time every 20 games) NBA Playoffs Games with at least 15 rebounds: LeBron James: 5 (1 time every 23 games) Kobe Bryant: 2 (1 time every 110 games) NBA Playoffs Games with at least 12 rebounds: LeBron James: 22 (1 time every 5 games) Kobe Bryant: 3 (1 time every 73 games) NBA Playoff runs under 50% shooting: Kobe: 15 (every year) LeBron: 4 NBA Playoff runs over 50% shooting: Kobe Bryant: 0 (never) LeBron James: 2 NBA Playoff runs under 48% shooting: Kobe Bryant: 14 LeBron James: 4 NBA Playoff runs over 48% shooting: Kobe Bryant: 1 LeBron James: 3 NBA Playoff runs under 46% shooting: Kobe Bryant: 11 LeBron James: 2 NBA Playoff runs under 44% shooting: Kobe Bryant: 7 LeBron James: 2 NBA Playoff runs over 30ppg: Kobe Bryant: 4 LeBron James: 3 NBA Playoff runs over 32ppg: Kobe Bryant: 2 LeBron James: 1 NBA Playoff runs over 34ppg: Kobe Bryant: 0 (never) LeBron James: 1 NBA Playoffs Win Shares Kobe Bryant: 28.3 (1.9 every playoff run) LeBron James: 24.3 (3.5 every playoff run) NBA Playoffs Percentage of points scored on free throws: LeBron James: 27.1% Kobe Bryant: 23.4% NBA Playoffs Team Record in games with 30+ shot attempts LeBron James: 2-2 (.500) Kobe Bean Bryant: 7-10 (.412) This is probably why Phil Jackson tried to talk Kobe into playing “more like LeBron”. If Kobe was more consistently efficient this wouldn’t be an issue. This is why you cannot ignore missed shots, they lead to losses. You must build amazing teams around a main shot taker who’s not a consistently efficient scorer if you want to win championships. Playoff series against common opponents: vs 2008 Celtics LeBron James: 26.7ppg 6.4reb 7.6ast 35.5%fg Kobe Bryant: 25.7ppg 4.7reb 5.0ast 41.1%fg Playoff series against common opponents: vs 2009 Magic LeBron James: 38.5ppg 8.3reb 8.0ast 75 48.7%fg Kobe Bryant: 32.4ppg 5.6reb 7.4ast 58 42.9%fg Playoff series against common opponents: vs 2010 Celtics LeBron James: 26.8ppg 9.3reb 7.2ast 44.7%fg Kobe Bryant: 28.6ppg 8.0reb 3.9ast 40.5%fg (worst shooting % for a Finals MVP) Kobe Bryant holds the worst shooting performance in NBA Finals history for a Finals MVP (6-24 shooting, 18 missed shots, game 7). Playoff series against common opponents: vs 2011 Mavericks LeBron James: 17.8ppg 7.1reb 6.8ast 47.7%fg 32.1%3pt Kobe Bryant: 23.3ppg 3.0reb 2.5ast 45.8%fg 22.7%3pt Playoff series against common opponents: vs 2012 Thunder LeBron James: 28.6ppg 10.2reb 7.4ast 47.2%fg 18.8%3pt Kobe Bryant: 31.2ppg 5.2reb 3.4ast 42.6%fg 11.1%3pt The fact that Kobe Bryant has accumulated 9 1st defensive team selections is something I’ve disagreed with strongly for about half a decade. Kobe was a solid defender in his prime, but the game was watered down when it pertains to good defensive shooting guards, and Kobe won most of his 1st defensive team selections based on reputation, that’s a fact. Olympic Gold Medals LeBron James: 1 Kobe Bryant: 1 Kobe Bryant is not among the top 50 players all time in playoff assists per game. LeBron James is. He’s #19 in playoff assists per game all time. Kobe Bryant is #10 all time in playoff points per game. LeBron James is #5 all time in playoff points per game. Kobe Bryant was 29 years old the first time he led his team to the NBA Finals and 30 years old the first time he led his team to an NBA championship. LeBron James was 27 years old the first time he led a team to an NBA championship. LeBron James has led the NBA in playoff win shares 4 times, Kobe has led the NBA in playoff win shares 1 time. Who’s more clutch? This argument has been blurred repeatedly by analysts and fan boys. There is no true winner here. In the playoffs career clutch game on the line shot attempts: (game within 2, shot to tie or take lead) Kobe Bryant 7-27 for 25.9% shooting LeBron James 5-14 for 35.7% shooting Regular season career clutch game on the line shot attempts: (game within 2 points) LeBron James 24-71 for 33.8% shooting Kobe Bryant 39-133 for 29.3% shooting Who’s more clutch? What about the last 5 minutes of 4th quarters in close games? (thanks 82games) 11-12 Per 48 minutes of clutch time: LeBron James 33.2pts 15.1reb 9.3ast 2.3blk 1.7stl 38.6%fg Kobe Bryant 36.3pts 7.8reb 6.8ast 0.6blk 1.0stl 32.7%fg 10-11 Per 48 minutes of clutch time: LeBron James 45.1pts 11.2reb 5.9ast .7blk 1.4stl 43.6%fg Kobe Bryant: 49.8pts 8.5reb 7.6ast .3blk 1.8stl 40.2%fg 09-10 Per 48 minutes of clutch time: LeBron James: 66.1pts 15.9reb 8.3ast 3.2blk 3.2stl 48.8%fg Kobe Bryant: 51.2pts 9.0reb 5.3ast 0.0blk 1.8stl 44.4%fg 08-09 Per 48 minutes of clutch time: LeBron: 55.9pts 14.3reb 12.6ast 1.7blk 3.5stl 56.5%fg Kobe Bryant: 56.7pts 8.4reb 5.7ast 0.0blk 1.0stl 45.7%fg 07-08 Per 48 minutes of clutch time: LeBron James 56.0pts 9.6reb 8.2ast 2.2blk 2.9stl 47.5%fg Kobe Bryant 51.8pts 8.1reb 6.0ast .7blk .4stl 44.8%fg Both Kobe and LeBron were inaccurate players in the last 5 minutes of close games this past season, there are no clear cut “winners” in this argument, just mythical rhetoric. Kobe Bryant is 0-7 in his last 4 game winning playoff attempts. So as you can see, comparing players based on “rings” can be very misleading. Based on the casual criteria, we can make player comparisons much more easy than this. Let me explain! If the casual criteria is: scoring, clutch perception, and rings… well you better damn well have John Havlicek over LeBron James on your all time lists. He was on 8 championship teams, hit many clutch shots, and was the main scorer on most of those championship teams. Unfortunately for the casuals, this is not the proper way to compare individual players…. OBVIOUSLY.
I know I'm late, but this thread is stupid. Lebron needed two superstars to elevate him. The fact Kobe at this age is still in the convo sums it up
Chris Bosh averaged 14 and 8 boards per game in the playoffs, with only 2 games above 20 points (and missed an 1.5 series). The Heat basically went through the entire Eastern Conference WITHOUT a player above 6'8.
Just answer this simple question, where did Kobe lead the lakers to without a superstar? Let me answer for you, 1 missed playoffs and 2 1st rounds exit. Conclusion: you need superstars to win games in today's NBA!
Ok my bad. Superstar is the wrong term Lebron needed another HOF alongside him (possibly two) to get that ring. Kobe won 2 rings with him being the MAIN guy. Gasol's a good player but doesn't equate to half the help Wade & Bosh gave Lebron. Wade's a top 5 player and Bosh is to p 15. Where is Gasol?
So Lebron didn't win the rings being the MAIN guy??? I don't know what are you watching??? Sorry when the lakers won the last 2 rings, Gasol played like top 5 player in the league. And the lakers also have 2 all star caliber player in Bynum and Odom plus the coach in the league. Don't make it sound like Kobe won it all alone. What happen to Kobe last 2 playoffs when Gasol played like GaSoft? If kobe was that good why is it his team get SWEEPED? Why was kobe clutchness, fire, competitiveness, aggressiveness during the series???? Injuries was always the excuse used. What happen last season when Kobe finally healthy again? He shot the worst fg% in the last 10 seasons and his team lost again in the 2nd round, what happened??? ANSWER: He needs superstars help same like Lebron.
Do you have trouble with rudimentary tasks? The whole shoelace tying endeavor - perchance does that prove to be a bit of a puzzler unto your delicate noggin? LeBron just finished one of the top playoff runs of all time while serving as his teams primary scorer, distributor, rebounder, low post threat and situationally the top perimeter defender. Other than taking tickets and making popcorn there is not alot more to do that he didn't, and suffices to say the only time Kobe did anything like that it was intermingled with some wet dream about Colorado hotel worker bootie. In closing - i think it counts as being the "main" guy and that you should investigate spelunking as a hobby in order to further your penetration.
So Kobe already got the 2nd best C and one of the best PF's in the game. If LeBron was a hoe for wanting to play with Wade/Bosh, don't that make Kobe a hoe for wanting to add Nash to the frontcourt he already got? Shouldn't he be hard like Magic and Bird and not wanna stack the deck playing with the best? How can he be ok with trying to win with a rival like Nash?
Well I dont think you want to make this about fire. Because wheres Lebron's fire been every year besides this year. Youre comparing a player in his prime to a guy CLEARLY in the last stages of his career. The Heat have 3 damn players capable of carrying a team yet Kobe's the one who you wanna place asterisks on. The Heat have the most talented team in the NBA and Lebron has greatly benefited. People said "Kobe would never win a ring without a HOF center" and he won two. Lebron gotta LONG way to go just to scrub Kobe's shoes
Nash is 38, Kobe didn't leave his team, Kobe is out of his prime, and Kobe has two rings as the main guy.
Nash is still great at 38. Kobe didn't leave his team but he's recruiting guys to come there, so what's the difference? Kobe does have 2 rings as the main guy. LeBron is 1 behind.
You mean those other MVP years when he was also putting up better seasons than Kobe ever has ever in his entire life? 2009? When he only put up the greatest statistical sustained playoff run in history? I don't know...but when Kobe gets beat out by a non-"fire" LeBron it really illustrates the gulf between the two
Kobe played like poop in the finals. They won because of gasol. I haven't watched those finals in a while but I remember Kobe stinking it up, relative to Kobe standards.
The biggest difference is that Kobe is clearly out of his prime and needs a lot of help to win a ring at this point and Nash came to him even if Kobe recruited him. If we were talking about prime Nash and Kobe i think the Lakers would be the overwhelming favorites to win it all next year. However, at their current age, they aren't even the favorites to make it to the finals. This is a desperation move for an aging team and stars to take one more run at a ring. You could better compare the two even if you are ignoring the differences in age if Lebron had won a ring in Cleveland then Wade and Bosh came to team up with him. I don't think nearly as many people would be calling out Lebron in that situation.
