Thing is fadeway, people like Lord of the Rings for the same reason they like AYN RAND and AMD chips. These are all part of a counter culture, a way to buck the mainstream. To protest it! It has little to do with the art itself. And I for one think that that is no better than being part of the masses, only that one feels himself more intelligent. Be different. Fine. But don't hate on something for the simple fact that a large number of people like it. I for example pretty much hate boy bands. It's not my cup of tea. But I can still listen to BYE BYE BYE. It's a cool song. Same with rap, and hard [insert whatever] rock, I could stand to do without a heavy dose of both, but I still own and enjoy Guns n' Roses first album and 2pac's greatest hits. Now as for the greatest book in the english language, my vote is Invisible Man by Ralph Ellison. It blows pretty much every other novel out of the water, especially in the fantasy genre!
Where the heck is <b>that</b> coming from? I'm going to pull a Kagy and tell you to go back and re-read my post, because you are obviously confused.
Actually Fade, The remark was directed at the general. I wasn't directing it at you. I basically used your post as an example and a tool through which I could get on the proverbial soapbox. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Nomar, other than mentioning Invisible Man as a great book, kbm is just talking out his ass with his pompous little theory.
Nomar, Lord of the Rings has been adopted by the counter culture because -- like it or not -- the fantasy genre has always been the b*stard child of "real" literature. This in the same way as the AMD chip is to Pentium. It has been the processor of choice by the counter culture not because it is a better chip necessarily but because it was not a hugh company like intel. That is what I mean by bucking the system. You like something not because it is better than something else but because it holds a quality you find appealing. In the case of lord of the rings, and fantasy novels in general, most of the mainstream will never see them in the same vain as Ulysses and The Sound and the Fury (to name a few) thus the counter culture safely adopts it the genre and the book as their own. It meets the quality of being small enough to enjoy. To be sure, though, MARK MY WORDS! If Lord of the Rings movie gets mass appeal, the counter culture will drop it like a dead fly. CK, and no I am not talking out my ass! I know what I am talking about.
Lord of the Rings has been adopted by the counter culture because -- like it or not -- the fantasy genre has always been the b*stard child of "real" literature. First off - what the hell is this "counter culture"? Another half-baked clique theory? I couldn't care less about your correlations to microchips, which has no real point. You like something not because it is better than something else but because it holds a quality you find appealing. I may also like something because I think it is better than something else. And yes, I tend to like things better when they interest me. In the case of lord of the rings, and fantasy novels in general, most of the mainstream will never see them in the same vain as Ulysses and The Sound and the Fury (to name a few) thus the counter culture safely adopts it the genre and the book as their own. The main stream reads Ulysses and the sound and the fury(another one of my favs)? Didn't know that. What else does the main-stream read? You have a booklist? It meets the quality of being small enough to enjoy. To be sure, though, MARK MY WORDS! If Lord of the Rings movie gets mass appeal, the counter culture will drop it like a dead fly. I know I wont. Maybe my brethern will. I guess this whole board is just a counter-culture because its so obvious that the Lakers are the better team, yet the people want to buck against the system and root for someone that interests them, just like computer chips.
Potter is a FRAUD! Don't be deceived by its total... http://biz.yahoo.com/fo/011119/1119topnews_1.html Besides, aren't some people just going to see the Star Wars trailer and leaving? Dinosaurs rule.
CK, The counter culture as I see it defined is a group of people who dislike something based solely on its appeal and its standardness(if that's a word). It also has to do with intelligence and tradition and many other factors as well. To say the least, it's a big word and cannot be exhausted with just a few sentences. It needs volumes of books to be tapped fully. And just so you know, it's not my theory. Take the lakers, for example. Many on this board hate them NOT because they like the rockets, but because they are the team on top with the best two players in the game. They seemingly can't be beat. Now I understand not rooting for them because obviously we're rockets fans, but not liking them because they have so much talent, or because they play the game so well or they have great players, or because they have a large fan base or sellout every game or because they are on TNT, NBC and the like, well, that's another story. That borders on a counter culture.
SW2 trailers were pulled from the beginning of most of the Potter prints. Potter was placed on more screens because of the long running time. Potter rules!
Guys, I don't agree with all of kbm says, but what he's talking about is hardly new or unheard of. It's a quite common occurence, actually. Hell, the most visual example is the whole 'Goth' thing. An attempt to be something other than what is considered 'mainstream'. And I don't get the bashing of him, I didn't really feel he was bashing anyone else in his initial post. Maybe I read it wrong, but I didn't think he was trying to flame anyone.
I think were all just kidding. But back to the "buck the mainstream" point. I agree that these people exist, who hate Starbucks for instance. But those arent the people who like LOTR. Or rather, the people who like LOTR arent all like that. I dont see how you can classify LOTR as either mainstream or not. It was written in the 50s. Is Harry Potter not mainstream? Thats a fantasy genre story.
Ah, cool. Thought it was a little unsual to see the flaming like that. Anyhow, I think there is some merit to the LOTR/mainstream thing. kbm does have a point in that Fantasy doesn't get the kind of general respect in literature. I mean I haven't had many English classes where the professor will throw some Fellowship of the Ring into the reading list. Sometimes I feel the whole Fantasy/Science Fiction section is shunned by the rest of the bookstore regulars. I think the point kbm is making with Potter is that it's breaking that 'stay away from the mainstream' rule. It *is* a type of fantasy, and suddenly its become very popular and widely accepted and everyone wants to see it. Therefore it will be hated by the regular fantasy fans, who's reading tastes are generally out of the Grisham/Oprah Book Club limelight. And they hate nothing more to think that the masses are finally getting introduced to their 'home turf', so to speak, and it happens to be - go figure - Potter. But, along those same lines, I'd wait to see for myself exactly what kind of read Potter is. I ignored it at first because I thought it was written for a particular age group, but now that I've seen a few pages I'll have to read it before I can make a judgement.
Thanks for the support Rokkit. I think some people take a reflex action to all my posts on the board because of my reputation. Because, although I don't generally make many strong unpopular statements, when I do, I piss people off because they tend to be either value statements, like this one, or criticisms of something on the board I find illogical, like the direction of the fantasy basketball league I joined and got booted out of, really quit. What it comes down to is I analyze **** too much. So partly CK and Nomar were responding to ME -- not my statement. However it is true that they had an interest in what I said originally. Reps are not broken easily but that's the price one pays for being an individual. I am, if truth told, counter culture to counter culture - hehehehe.
Sorry dude, yeah I know your "history", but that matters not in the slightest to me. Maybe to Nomar or you, but I don't really care. What I was responding to was a post full of bunk, and I still think it is. I get the vague concept of a "counter" culture, but it's obvious you don't really know how to explain it and that you don't know how to "apply" it. If you can't express yourself concerning it, I don't even know why you bring it up. I know I enjoy the books I read because they interest me, not because I want to "buck the system" whatever.
This statement just goes to show what a selective reader you are, CK, when it comes to my posts. I qualified that statement no less than three times: "I think ... Partly ... and however it's true ..." but you, with you're narrow reading skills pull out any aguement point you can find! whatever right back at you!
That's "your," not "you're." I'm with Crisco on this. I understand what kbm is saying (heck, I have a degree in this stuff), but I do not agree. I don't think fantasy literature is any kind of "b*stard child." My Norton Anthology of English Literature contains a great many examples of the genre and not once in any university course that I did was fantasy writing looked down upon, even from the most stuffiest, starchiest and fossilized of professors. I also don't think that people have adopted LOTR because they are trying to consciously or subconsciously buck anything. People are LOTR fans because they like Tolkien's writing, that's all. Also, how can LOTR possibly be considered to be against the norm in fantasy writing? Most common, modern day fantasy is based upon Tolkien's concepts. The Tolkien world/races/etc.. and variations thereof are the norm in fantasy now, not the exception. Maybe in the '50s when LOTR first came out I might have been able to buy your concept, but not today. LOTR is mainstream among the fantasy genre. It isn't as mainstream as Harry Potter, though!
Er, I don't know what 'reputation' there is (maybe I need to pay better attention) but I'm just refering to this topic here. Anyhow, I don't think the idea is that you read something simply to be part of a group. You read something because you like it, pure and simple. I don't think Sci-fi or fantasy fans force themselves to read the books just to be different. The point is, if you are a fan of the work, you become part of that sub group. I read some sci-fi and fantasy. (I say some because I've only read two other fantasy series other than LOTR) ANd its always cool to come across someone else who does, because you can relate to the text. That's the kind of 'sub group' that exists. Not a bunch of people who meet every other week or something - just people who can appreciate the work. Then, when something disrupts that work, changes it in some way, you take offense. Again, like the whole mainstream fiction example I related above. This does seem pretty common. A lot of the posters here have very defined music tastes. Music is good example. Say you grew up liking something, or really grew to enjoy, a style that is far from 'mainstream' or popular. You take pride in that fact. And you take pride in mentioning that's what you listen to. And, in many cases, the chance to blast the music that is popular now is too hard to pass up. Anyway, looks like I'm going to see Potter tonight...which kind of sucks because I usually like to read the book first....
