i asked a question yesterday and no one seemed interested enough to answer. today's a non-game day, so i thought i'd ask again - not for the sake of knocking him (he's a rocket after all, and i dont like to knock on someone too much while he's down), but rather for a good bball discussion. the question i had/have is: if you take out the reliance or over-reliance on the refs' calls in offense, how much is left in his game? otherwise, i think he's a very good shooter and has very good fundamentals. when given the chance and having the ball in his hands all the time like in the past few yrs, he can be effective and his #'s look really good. its his over-reliance on the calls from the refs that can make his overall game inconsistent and thus unreliable quite a bit. honestly, right now he reminds me michael redd at his peak (a short couple of yrs) for some reason. i know many cf's think of him as on par with many all-time greats, but i'm sorry i just never have felt that way - even purely from a physical talent perspective. this is focused on his offensive game. i'm not talking about his defense or the mental side of the ball game. idk if this has been talked about b4 since i didnt come to this board at all for a few yrs and only came back this yr. if the mods feel this is an unnecessary thread, then feel free to lock or delete it.
"if you take out the reliance or over-reliance on the refs' calls in offense, how much is left in his game?" there will be nothing left. i told all y'all that his ref baiting wouldn't work in the playoffs and no one wanted to believe me. james frauden y'all.
I stated this almost a year ago and everyone complained about me. He has no offensive moves aside from driving down middle of paint looking for a foul or a contested 3 at top of key. His athletic ability hinders his progress to where he is a below the rim player in the half court. Even when he post up he intentionally jumps into defenders for foul calls
He has no vertical, he's fat and lazy, poor leader, chemistry ruiner, selfish and doesn't like DMo (according to bballholic). F this guy, trade him for SG that can shoot 3s, keep Lawson and watch him become what Harden once was for this team.
First of all ibm you can't take a players biggest strength away. What would Durant be without his shooting? If you took away Curry's handler? They would both be role players. He is a good shooter. He doesn't shoot well right now but he is. Do you know taht only 2% of his shots were left unguarded last season? (Dmo's for example were 70%). He is the second most guarded player in the league after Curry and still manages to score. Now if he could at least make his defence from godawful to bellow average so he won't be a blackhole when he's on the court it would be nice. AND LOL at him having no vertical. But what to expect from a horrible DMO-only troll who isn't even a Rockets fan?
no, there's a difference. and that's the whole point. durant's shooting (as well as harden's), curry's handler (as well as his phenomenal shooting) will always be there no matter what, just like yao's height or someone's ft %. its undeniable that a big part of harden's game is getting the calls from the refs. and that fluctuates, thus makes his game to fluctuate. and i am talking about if the refs should call this or that. btw, idk what his vertical is. but among the elite players, harden doesnt strike me as a terribly athletic guy.
Harden is playing poorly right now, but he's getting to the line over 11 times per game. I don't see how that's his problem. His problem, as I see it, is he either doesn't care very much or has given up on McHale. And if you mean just in general for his whole career, no, I still don't see it as a problem. And seriously Michael Redd?
He has elite courtvision He has elite playmaking and passing ability (esp. for a non-pg) He has elite handles and deception with the ball in his hands He's an excellent - borderline elite - freethrow shooter He has an elite first step (Mr. Morey might prefer Von Wafer's, who knows) He's also excellent at creating a shot for himself (for others falls under playmaking), hence OKC's reliance on him in 4Q despite KD and WB in lineup. Off the top of my head, I'd contend he's borderline - or effectively - elite at all those things. I would define that as >1stdev vs the avg 2 gaurd or avg 1-4 in the NBA - all positions Harden plays for this team. I'm sure there's some I've overlooked. As much as James needs to pull his head out of his ass, a few excessively critical on this board might be well served following that same advice.
i agree with this. and if i didnt make it clear enough, let me say it again. this thread was not meant to knock him. just some bball discussion.
He is very athletic. That's why his awful defense is even more infuriating. Here :http://www.nbadraft.net/2009-nba-draft-combine-athleticism-test-results 37.0 max vert better than Griffin's. And he is getting the calls because HE IS fouled. If hadn't such strong hands and build other players would lose the ball repeatedly or be afraid to go often in the paint. And yes for sg he has good court vision-not elite but good. For a SG he also has good handles, but that doesn't say so much because firstly the sg position is so weak that there are many sf posing as sg and they have crap handles. Compared to a pg his handles are average.
I don't see this elite ball handling . most of the time he turns the ball over dribbling in traffic whereas a true handler like curry is dribbling circles around everyone no matter the defensive pressure.
Curry is the best or second best ballhandler in the league. (Kyrie also has elite handles). Most pgs dont' have handles like that to be able to do what he does. Including starting caliber pgs.
His biggest strength isn't his reliance on calls. His biggest strength is that you must double team him to prevent his drives, or he's going all the way to the rim. And he still scores on double teams. Probably the most AND1s from a perimeter player in the game right now, not named Lebron. His ability to beat his man and drive to the basket forces opponents to design defenses to stop that. They must stop Harden's drives first and foremost, and it so happens to result in a lot of foul calls, just like it does for every player who is great at beating his man and driving to the basket. All those players (Ginobody included) have high FTAs. What's happening is the defenses are now clogging his path and forcing him to pass and, in our system, his passes are so predictable resulting in turnovers or the defense running out to the three point shooter in time. Plus, we don't really have great three pt shooters. All this also seems to have befuddled Harden, and he hasn't adjusted. And he looks lost out there.
he's an elite offensive player. he's got a quick first step, if he's not getting fouled, he's a good finisher. he's terrific in transition...and for the most part he's a good shooter. he's a dynamic playmaker. let's not pretend like he's only reliant on the refs. but what he's very poor at and is a very huge flaw in his game if we want to truly be contenders is his off the ball play. he doesn't move. he doesn't get easy bucket. i think part of that is coaching too (kerr came in and orchestrated a gorgeous offense around picks/screens and using curry and klays off the ball movement to open it up for everything). basically, harden if he doens't have the ball, he isn't putting pressure on the defense (like a curry for example). and notice where he catches the ball too....it's like 90% of the time at the top of the 3 point line where he'll get a pick or screen or go iso 1v1...there's no variety. he needs to MOVE off the ball and put pressure on the ball that way. this is more important than him developing a post game or anything else. that would open up our entire offense, allow lawson to handle the ball (if someone would also whack his head telling him to stop being a passive little b****). and obviously, on defense he's back to haren, prob even worse than before. which is really discouraging. we need a coaching change with a diff gameplan that a coach can hold the players accountable for...when they don't follow the system. b/c we don't have a system, players can't be messed with b/c you can't fault them for following nothing.
His getting to the foul line is not the problem. In fact, it's the only thing that is keeping his efficiency from being Kobe-like right now. It is no secret that our offense is awfully predictable and one dimensional. I don't know if it is the system or Harden's playing style. If it is the system, then McHale deserves the criticism, even the firing. If it is Harden's style, then the coach is just trying to cater to his superstar's strength. This reminds me of the Steve Francis era. Rudy T tried his best to maximize Francis's style. But that style was just not very conducive to winning big. Of course, it didn't help that we did not have a GM who could bring in quality role players to complement Francis. Speaking of GM, Morey should not get a pass. Sure he is one of the best and smartest GM in the business. But he assembled this group of players and coaching staff. The buck ultimately stops there.
Very turnover prone. Doesn't have a post game. Doesn't really have a floater in traffic unlike Curry and that's why he struggles on his drives against big men who block /alter his shots. Defense? Hustle? LOL
