Harden: To win a Championship - He Must Do EVERYTHING!!!

ParaSolid · Sep 30, 2020

Will said: ↑

I've come to the sad conclusion that Harden will never win a championship, at least not as the main man, because his game and his mindset don't facilitate 5-on-5 dominance in the playoffs. He's a fantastic individual player, but that's not how you win. You win by fitting into a larger system of guys who work well together. The Heat are a good example.

Harden needs teammates who can play a fast and decisive 4-on-3 when he's doubled. That means more than one teammate who can make a play, not just stand and be ready to shoot when Harden stops dribbling and gives up the ball. But we don't get those guys, because they don't want to stand around and wait. And they're more expensive, and less likely to be available in the undrafted/waived/underperforming free-agent market Morey keeps going to. Morey has surrounded Harden with guys who fit well in 5-on-5 with a ball hog (an efficient ball hog) but who wilt, when deprived of him, in the 4-on-3.

We're just way too dependent on this guy. He's great in ways that don't make his teammates better.

Chris Paul was actually a pretty good fit, in terms of making the team better. He was getting old and lazy, and increasingly dumping too much work on his teammates, but he could kill opposing teams in the 4-on-3, when he was on the court alongside Harden. But Harden needed to change his game more to work with CP. And evidently he decided he'd had enough.

You can fault D'Antoni for some of this. He got the max out of Harden by making the whole offense revolve around him. But maxing out a single player, even a great one, isn't maxing out a team.

If Harden wants a championship, as opposed to perennial MVP contention, he'll have to focus on changing his game to make it more compatible with the kind of player or players who could plausibly, in combination with him, form a championship team. I doubt we have the assets to get those players at this point, in any event. But even if we did, I don't see much evidence that Harden would adjust sufficiently to work with them. I can see him winning a championship at the end of his career, when he's a lesser player and has been forced by Father Time to give up the leading role.
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This is a fair assessment. You can’t depend on one guy too much. I thought it started becoming imbalanced in this way when CP went down last year and harden had to go supernova to keep us afloat. He needs to go back to his mvp year and get the team more involved. But russ needs to show up too

daywalker02 · Sep 30, 2020

Will said: ↑

I've come to the sad conclusion that Harden will never win a championship, at least not as the main man, because his game and his mindset don't facilitate 5-on-5 dominance in the playoffs. He's a fantastic individual player, but that's not how you win. You win by fitting into a larger system of guys who work well together. The Heat are a good example.

Harden needs teammates who can play a fast and decisive 4-on-3 when he's doubled. That means more than one teammate who can make a play, not just stand and be ready to shoot when Harden stops dribbling and gives up the ball. But we don't get those guys, because they don't want to stand around and wait. And they're more expensive, and less likely to be available in the undrafted/waived/underperforming free-agent market Morey keeps going to. Morey has surrounded Harden with guys who fit well in 5-on-5 with a ball hog (an efficient ball hog) but who wilt, when deprived of him, in the 4-on-3.

We're just way too dependent on this guy. He's great in ways that don't make his teammates better.

Chris Paul was actually a pretty good fit, in terms of making the team better. He was getting old and lazy, and increasingly dumping too much work on his teammates, but he could kill opposing teams in the 4-on-3, when he was on the court alongside Harden. But Harden needed to change his game more to work with CP. And evidently he decided he'd had enough.

You can fault D'Antoni for some of this. He got the max out of Harden by making the whole offense revolve around him. But maxing out a single player, even a great one, isn't maxing out a team.

If Harden wants a championship, as opposed to perennial MVP contention, he'll have to focus on changing his game to make it more compatible with the kind of player or players who could plausibly, in combination with him, form a championship team. I doubt we have the assets to get those players at this point, in any event. But even if we did, I don't see much evidence that Harden would adjust sufficiently to work with them. I can see him winning a championship at the end of his career, when he's a lesser player and has been forced by Father Time to give up the leading role.
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It is not even that hard.

He has to take a salary cut, lets say he earns 'only' 25 to 28 million.

WB is hopeless IMO.

At this point I would be all for making 1 Final appearance or taking it to 7 games in the WCF again.

Better than nothing.

ParaSolid · Sep 30, 2020

fchowd0311 said: ↑

He doesn't create 4 on 3s.

1. He lets the defense dictate where he's doubled by walking right into them.

2. Since he just stands there right after passing out, the defense can easily recover where they are playing 4 on 4 offense with Harden doing his Mcgrady in Toronto impression.

Who knew that years later Clutchfans posters would praise that action as desrible.
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So he’s supposed to create a double team Situation and then beat that double team All game? Isn’t this unreasonable? Why can’t he count on his team to capitalize on the 4 on 3? If he runs to get the ball back, he’ll just get doubled again

Rocket River · Sep 30, 2020

ParaSolid said: ↑

So he’s supposed to create a double team Situation and then beat that double team All game? Isn’t this unreasonable? Why can’t he count on his team to capitalize on the 4 on 3? If he runs to get the ball back, he’ll just get doubled again
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We need people who can get the ball back to him

Rocket River.

CometsWin · Oct 5, 2020

Rocket River said: ↑

Threes
Layups
MidRange
PostUps
Run constantly on offense
Strong Post Defense
Strong Switching Defense
Strong Three Point Defense
Score At least 35 per game\
Dish at least 10 assists (Maybe assist to himself if the other players cannot hit the shots)
10 Rebounds - At least 4 offensive and any he misses he has to run back and stop the break
Get the other 4 players easy shots and force them to make them and scream and yell at them until they do . . . failing that he must conjole and take a pay cut to get them paid .
Harden has to draw up plays during time outs
He must inbound the ball and then receive the inbound pass
He must recruit other players . .. . and design their contracts to fit under the cap

Is there anything I missed?
Should he run the concessions as well?

Rocket River
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Jimmy Butler can do it all in the biggest games without whining about it apparently. He even guarded Lebron James in the 4th quarter on top of it all. Dude played 45 minutes of hard nosed team basketball. Why do you think he didn't want to play with James Harden. Jimmy ain't no sucker.

40 point triple double in the finals against Lebron and AD, not against the ****ing Knicks or Kings or some other dregs of the league.

Rocket River · Oct 5, 2020

CometsWin said: ↑

Jimmy Butler can do it all in the biggest games without whining about it apparently. He even guarded Lebron James in the 4th quarter on top of it all. Dude played 45 minutes of hard nosed team basketball. Why do you think he didn't want to play with James Harden. Jimmy ain't no sucker.

40 point triple double in the finals against Lebron and AD, not against the ****ing Knicks or Kings or some other dregs of the league.
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lol . . ok
You been waiting 3 games . .. .to have this moment. . . . .have at it

Rocket River

CometsWin · Oct 5, 2020

Rocket River said: ↑

lol . . ok
You been waiting 3 games . .. .to have this moment. . . . .have at it

Rocket River
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It's three more finals games than Harden will ever have as a Rocket.

HP3 · Oct 5, 2020

CometsWin said: ↑

It's three more finals games than Harden will ever have as a Rocket.
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But thats not because Harden isnt good enough.

CometsWin · Oct 5, 2020

HP3 said: ↑

But thats not because Harden isnt good enough.
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It's really not a matter of him being good enough, it's a matter of him playing the right way in such that the parts are greater than the whole. It's a lack of leadership, a lack of understanding, and a commitment to gimmicky basketball.

HP3 · Oct 5, 2020

CometsWin said: ↑

It's really not a matter of him being good enough, it's a matter of him playing the right way in such that the parts are greater than the whole. It's a lack of leadership, a lack of understanding, and a commitment to gimmicky basketball.
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What's the "right" way, there is no "right" way. Lebron has gotten multiple championships doing what Harden does. He's just been on better teams. Like this is the thing, everyone here think there is just 1 formula to win a championship when that isnt the case. I think Harden's leadership abilities should be questioned though, we needed a real leader here and that was Cp3.

CometsWin · Oct 5, 2020

HP3 said: ↑

What's the "right" way, there is no "right" way. Lebron has gotten multiple championships doing what Harden does. He's just been on better teams. Like this is the thing, everyone here think there is just 1 formula to win a championship when that isnt the case. I think Harden's leadership abilities should be questioned though, we needed a real leader here and that was Cp3.
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Lebron James has always been a smarter player, better player, and stronger leader than Harden. Lebron won a championship in freaking Cleveland with two alleged stars that fell into oblivion once Lebron left.

Case in point, the signature play of Lebron's career is a chase down block in the last minute of a game seven in the NBA Finals. Where would Harden be on that play? Half court.

HP3 · Oct 5, 2020

CometsWin said: ↑

Lebron James has always been a smarter player, better player, and stronger leader than Harden. Lebron won a championship in freaking Cleveland with two alleged stars that fell into oblivion once Lebron left.

Case in point, the signature play of Lebron's career is a chase down block in the last minute of a game seven in the NBA Finals. Where would Harden be on that play? Half court.
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Kyrie is a great player with or without Lebron, dont know where this is coming from. Same with Kevin Love(well to a much lesser degree). Its not like Lebron was over there carrying bums against the Warriors, no he had a lot of help.

Cmon man, this is narrative speak...I guess we can stop here if its gonna be like this.

fchowd0311 · Oct 5, 2020

Will said: ↑

I've come to the sad conclusion that Harden will never win a championship, at least not as the main man, because his game and his mindset don't facilitate 5-on-5 dominance in the playoffs. He's a fantastic individual player, but that's not how you win. You win by fitting into a larger system of guys who work well together. The Heat are a good example.

Harden needs teammates who can play a fast and decisive 4-on-3 when he's doubled. That means more than one teammate who can make a play, not just stand and be ready to shoot when Harden stops dribbling and gives up the ball. But we don't get those guys, because they don't want to stand around and wait. And they're more expensive, and less likely to be available in the undrafted/waived/underperforming free-agent market Morey keeps going to. Morey has surrounded Harden with guys who fit well in 5-on-5 with a ball hog (an efficient ball hog) but who wilt, when deprived of him, in the 4-on-3.

We're just way too dependent on this guy. He's great in ways that don't make his teammates better.

Chris Paul was actually a pretty good fit, in terms of making the team better. He was getting old and lazy, and increasingly dumping too much work on his teammates, but he could kill opposing teams in the 4-on-3, when he was on the court alongside Harden. But Harden needed to change his game more to work with CP. And evidently he decided he'd had enough.

You can fault D'Antoni for some of this. He got the max out of Harden by making the whole offense revolve around him. But maxing out a single player, even a great one, isn't maxing out a team.

If Harden wants a championship, as opposed to perennial MVP contention, he'll have to focus on changing his game to make it more compatible with the kind of player or players who could plausibly, in combination with him, form a championship team. I doubt we have the assets to get those players at this point, in any event. But even if we did, I don't see much evidence that Harden would adjust sufficiently to work with them. I can see him winning a championship at the end of his career, when he's a lesser player and has been forced by Father Time to give up the leading role.
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Harden is one of if not the best floor raisers in the league. He can lead a team of scrubs to a playoff seed. What he's bad at compared to other superstars is being a ceiling raiser. He's probably the worst superstar at being a ceiling raiser. Curry is an example of a superstar who is a great ceiling raiser. He will elevate an already talented team to contender status because it's so easy to plug him in to pretty much any offense. Curry also is a great floor raiser also.

Harden is just really deficient at being a ceiling raiser because his game requires a complete redesign of a offensive system. He's like the Lamar Jackson of the NBA. You need a specific heliocentric offense catered to Harden for him to be good.

This wasn't the case in his days in OkC and his first couple of years as a Rocket.

D-rock · Oct 6, 2020

Morons thinking they can get better than Harden.

daywalker02 · Oct 6, 2020

CometsWin said: ↑

Lebron James has always been a smarter player, better player, and stronger leader than Harden. Lebron won a championship in freaking Cleveland with two alleged stars that fell into oblivion once Lebron left.

Case in point, the signature play of Lebron's career is a chase down block in the last minute of a game seven in the NBA Finals. Where would Harden be on that play? Half court.
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That is true, Irving and Love are never the same.

Rocket River · Oct 6, 2020

CometsWin said: ↑

It's three more finals games than Harden will ever have as a Rocket.
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Jimmy still a basketball god now? 22 - 10 - 9

Rocket River
"as a rocket" <-- nice caveat

CometsWin · Oct 6, 2020

Rocket River said: ↑

Jimmy still a basketball god now? 22 - 10 - 9

Rocket River
"as a rocket" <-- nice caveat
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No, he's 2nd round fodder... oh wait.

PeterKingX · Oct 6, 2020

I never heard people said Harden is a great leader or winner except Rockets homer fans. Maybe that’s the problem.

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Harden: To win a Championship - He Must Do EVERYTHING!!!

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