Harden to Dekker "Pass that s#!+!, Pass that s#!+!"

And this is all a coincidence. It's not to be taken as the behavior of a biased hater, it just so happens to look that way.[/QUOTE]

I think the word lazy can be misinterpreted. I am not talking about harden being lazy in the sense that he is too lazy to get up off the couch and go get a TV remote sitting across the room. Imo "being lazy" and "making passes that are not there" can be synonymous. For instance, the behind the back pass to Anderson off the pick and pop has "been there" many times, but harden's unwillingness to see how defenses are playing that pass lead to him sometimes throw it when it shouldn't be thrown, which is the type of "laziness" I am talking about. The same can be said for the numerous full court pass attempts he makes per game, and when he tries to force passes to bigs on PNRs. Those are "lazy" passes in a basketball sense, because they could be avoided with sharper play and better decision making. Is he going to be perfect? no. Is it unrealistic to ask him to make sharper passes? no.

As far as him getting fewer assists with fewer attempts at those types of passes, I agree, and that is something I would welcome. Give me 8 assists and 4 turnovers verses 12 assists and 8 TO all day. Not only do TO's lead to easy baskets for opposition, they let teams hang around in games that they shouldn't. I think TO's are one of the several reasons we see the rockets get out to big leads, only to squander them later in games.

I'm not sure I follow the curry comparison. The types of things I am asking harden to clean up in his game are largely unforced errors. Things, like I said, that harden bring on himself with poor decision making. Shooting percentage on the other hand, has to do more with how skilled of a shooter someone is, there is nothing unforced about missing shots. If a guy shoots x%, he shoots x%. Basically, I don't think you can compare unforced turnovers and shooting percentage.

Lastly, I agree, some of these posters are haters. I also think sometimes they have a point. Then again, even a broken clock is right twice a day....

 

1) So, pass to open Anderson + full court before the opponent sets + PNR to bigs. These are where all 12 assists come from. Are you seeing a pattern here?

2) He doesn't average 8 turnovers. It's 8 and 4 or 12 and 6. ANY coach will tell you, for the guy who has the ball most of the game and takes 10 trips to the line and gets 12 assists, give me the 12 and 6 over 8 and 4 any day. This is not even debatable. Westbrook is the only other comparable player in terms of usage and FTA, and he is averaging 0.4 TO's less than Harden on a team that averages fewer possessions. These are almost unanimously the 2 MVP candidates and their teams are exceeding expectations in the W/L column precisely because their teams have opted for unconventional playing system which allows for your PG to turn it over a lot as long as you only have catch and shoot players on your team who rarely turn it over.

3) Yes you can, because there is poor shot selection and positioning. If Harden can turn it over less, Curry can shoot better. Why doesn't he make better decisions about shooting? There are shots you don't have to take, and there are plays where you can be in better position. "If a guy shoots x%, he shoots x%" is the same as "Harden is the passer he is, and he has the teammates he has."

And the answer is, Curry has maximized his game, and at this point any improvement is incredibly difficult. And that's your answer. This is the maximum for Harden, and it is the best performance in the world. Please don't take this lightly. I want you to really let it resonate. He is the number 1 basketball player in the world so far this season. And it looks very much like he is stretched because he is carrying such a huge load. And it does not look like he can give more. For the TO's to go significantly down, something else has to give out. Less trips to the line, fewer assists, slower tempo. It would be ridiculous to do that for this team.

It is obsessive to be picking at this right now. If you want to win as much as possible, step 1 is: holy f*** we've won 70% of our games with this roster, send Harden a lifetime supply of lap dances from the biggest booty stripper money can buy. Step 2 is listing out the areas where this team can get the maximum improvement with the least difficulty, and there are plenty. If Harden's 2 TO's are anywhere near the top of your list, you should be fired IMMEDIATELY. Like, someone should grab you by your arm from behind near your armpit and just drag you out of the room and physically throw you out on the floor and break the whiteboard you were using on your head and also give you one kick to the ribs. And then Nene will show up out of nowhere and kick you once and say "why didn't you ask me to turn it over 1 time less?" and then Gordon will show up out of nowhere and kick you once and say "why didn't you ask me to turn it over 0.5 times less?" and then Beverley will show up out of nowhere and kick you once and say "don't ever disrespect James Harden, you understand? I'm going to turn it over 0 times from now on."

I tried to be as succinct as possible. Not hating on you btw, at least a rational discussion can be had with you.

 

This Mathloom guy gets it.

 

Something to also consider when looking at Harden's turnover number this season.

Player tracking data is on its 4th season of availability on NBA.com

James Harden leads the league and is on pace to demolish the previous highs in time of possession per game at 9.0 minutes per game. Should add John Wall(8.9) and Westbrook(8.8) are also on pace to easily beat the previous all time recorded high of 8.4 minutes per game by Lillard last season.

For reference Harden's time of possession numbers since 2013-2014 when the data became available on NBA.com

13/14 - 5.0
14/15 - 6.0
15/16 - 6.3
16/17 - 9.0

I think we can all pretty much agree that the more you have the ball in your hands the more you are going to turn it over.

Big rise in turnovers to go along with a rather huge jump in time of possession.

 

i second that.

 

1) Yes. I agree that these plays are where a good number of Harden's assists come from. That doesn't change the fact that they are where a good number of his turnovers come from too. The problem is not that he turns it over sometimes when making these plays, it's that he forces those passes some times which leads to the turnovers. I'll reiterate, in Harden's case, fewer turnovers mean's a higher rate of success for the offense (because he is the offense). so if it means that he averages, fewer assists, that's fine.

2)I'm not really following here. because you seem to be comparing Harden and westbrook's stats saying they aren't much different as a way of justifying Harden's play. I completely disagree with that, because many of the things that are hampering harden are the exact same for westbrook. both turn the ball over too much, and both take too many poor shots. Also, coaches talk about limiting turnovers as a key more than anything else! I know his average is 6, but he has been putting up numbers higher than that lately, and that is what needs to change. (specifically, 4 out of the last 6 AND 8 out of the last 10) 6 of which have been losses.

3)You make a good point about shot selection here. but if your only argument is: "curry can't be any better, and neither can harden" (as you do below) I would disagree with that .

4) I have a big beef here. let this resonate with you, The MVP race is not what matters to me. Individual stats are not what matter to me either. Just because harden many never eclipse these stats again , doesn't mean he can't change some things to help this team win games. (especially big games in the playoffs.) I think a decrease in the number of turnovers, while possibly leading to smaller assist numbers would greatly help this teams overall efficiency. Sure it may mean his individual numbers won't look as gawdy, but really who cares! the MVP not the most important thing here.

5)I'm just going to leave this last bit alone and write it off to homeristic passion. (which is fine). but don't just say "oh we have a 68% winning percentage through the first half, so obviously nothing can change that! Teams haven't caught up to what we are running! James is doing everything right!" as nice as that sounds I don't think it's a reasonable way to look at things. At the end of the day he needs to make sharper passes (and our guys need to make shots), or things are going to continue trending this way, whether he is MVP or not.




It's all good. There's a reason I come at what you are saying sometimes, it's because I know I can expect a good rational discussion!

(i'm not going to check this for grammar, sorry in advance)

 

This is just mathematically wrong, I'll just leave it alone and I am honestly sure you will read it again and realize the issue.

The thing is, it's not hampering them or their team. When I say these two guys are the two best players in the world right now, I meant hey are producing more wins for their team than any other player is producing wins for their team. That's not just some popularity contest. This team won't eclipse 15 wins without Harden. The Thunder wouldn't win 15 without Westbrook. These players are producing wins, not empty stats.

Everyone can be better. Maybe I can show you this point from a different angle. You are probably thinking that Harden can walk up the floor and think "ok just remember, be safer with the ball than you usually are" and that's somehow going to result in him creating more wins for the Rockets. This is a fantasy. Harden doesn't have time to think this, because he is already thinking of how to create 29 points with going to the line 10 times and open shots and grab 8 rebounds and call the play and make sure the guy is in the corner and so on. I know from a fan perspective it seems like just buckling up and being a chipper self motivator, but that's not what is happening. You are not asking him to cut 2 TO's. You are asking him to be the greatest player on the planet and cut 2 TO's. These are two very different things. It's easy to cut 2 TO's if you are not being the best player on the planet. It is not so easy if you are being the best player on the planet.

But the good news is, he is producing more wins for his team than any player on the planet.

Frankly I won't even bother with this. How many games did you think this roster could win before the season? Our 2nd and 3rd best players are 2 of Ryno/Ariza/Gordon. Our record is better than a team featuring Lebron, Kyrie and Love. It's behind only 2 teams, the Spurs and the Warriors. The Warriors 4th best player is Klay Thompson or Draymond Green.

It is NOT reasonable to expect more. There IS a ceiling to what a team can produce, otherwise you would put together 15 vet minimum guys and just give them advice.

Also, there is NO WAY dropping 4 assists and 2 TO's is going to do what you are saying. No chance. The guy who masterminded this unbelievable production is saying it needs MORE assists, MORE pace, MORE aggressiveness. You are advocating less passing. When in your life have you ever heard anyone say "we need to pass the ball less"? It just doesn't make any sense.

This part is 100% true. Homerism is actually always expecting more wins than is realistic. We are there already. We have won more than anyone thought possible playing this way, with a disgustingly bad January schedule the only thing slowing us. We are at our limit. We are almost on pace to break the franchise record. Our roster talent is middle of the pack at best.

The reasonable way to look at things I described for you already. It is obsessive to focus on Harden's TO's. No one said the team can't improve at all. I'm saying:

Spoiler

It's very clear. Nit picking at the most productive part of the team is illogical, it's unreasonable and if a GM were to do it they would rightfully be fired immediately. There are several things we can improve, Harden's 2 extra TO's are the least of our worries. There are 14 other players who can much more easily fix much bigger problems than Harden's 2 extra TO's. We are here because of Harden, he is at his absolute max, now everyone else, from the owner down to the towel boy, needs to do THEIR job better before asking Harden to do more.

Who else in the organization is doing their job the best in the world? Once everyone else is doing things at least as good as they have ever done it and there is nothing else plaguing the team, then we can talk about Harden's 2 TO's. Till then, someone needs to get this guy better talent or you guys will be regretting this BS when he says "F*** you, I gave everything I had, played every game, more minutes than anyone, one of the best in the WORLD, and you were busy whining about 2 TO's while I watched Ryan f*ckin Anderson trying to outplay Kevin Durant and everyone else build championship teams and lift trophies. I bled for this team, and yes I sucked at defense and I turned it over a bit more than other PG's. It was enough. Any contender would take me and thank me and support me."

Thankfully, Les and Morey and MDA understand this. I just want to make the point that IT IS ABSURD to be talking about it this much given what this guy produces at his maximum capabilities. And it's obvious that this is the most he can do right now, with these teammates, in this system, in 2017.

 

wow sir you da real MVP!

 

Mathloom going off for a quadruple-double.

 

Here is my biggest problem about the turn overs . . .. .
I think we average about 3 a game where the teammate fumbles the ball, wasn't looking for it, or flat out misses it.

One I know was Harden did the full court pass . . Hits Harrels hand
and the commentary was Harden overthrew it .. . . My thought was Harrel half assed it
It hits you hand . .. you should be able to control it.

Seriously . . . . I understand the frustration when the Pocket Pass is intercepted
but it happens
I'm pissed with the alley oops that fumbles out of bounds
The pass through the lane the big cannot control it.

Each big has their own issues.
NeNe handles the bounce better than the alley
Harrel and Capela are better at the Alley than the bounce pass.

Team has to stay on the same page

Rocket River

 

Esp when we Averaging at least 2 fumbled passes or someone not in the right spot EVERY GAME

Rocket River

 

PART 1
I will grant you that some do nit pick harden when it comes to the quality of his play. but what I am doing here is not nit picking Harden. It seems like the overall premise of your argument is that Harden is doing the best he can with the the supporting cast that he has, and it is unreasonable to expect any better. Further, you believe that your point is most clearly proven based on the numbers that Harden is putting up this year.

I agree, that if you don't believe this team (or harden) can get any better then you should stop criticizing his numbers because he is obviously playing his ass off this year. You are essentially saying "This team has already maxed out its potential and i should Just be happy with what has gone on so far. This line of logic is the one that I am sure will be taken by front office personnel at the end of the season in the exit meetings. (rightly so).

The problem is, It is not the goal of this team to get as many regular season wins as they can, and be satisfied when they get bounced out of the postseason before a deep run, and I can assure you this team will get handily beaten by the spurs, warriors or (healthy) clippers if the level of play doesn't shift upwards. Sure, you can say it may happen anyway, and I should just shut up about Harden. However, I am not just the type of person to let individual numbers and a good regular season record placate me into thinking there are not ways to make this team (as currently constituted) better.

My criticism of Harden does not come from a place of hating him, or not appreciating the excellent season he has put up so far. Rather, it comes from having a desire to see this team give itself the best opportunity for postseason success, and ultimately a championship. I know that is unlikely, regardless of what I or anyone else says should change about this team, but that doesn't mean I am just going to pat them on the back all season when there are clearly things that could be done better.

 

PART 2 @Mathloom

With all that said...

I don't see what is mathematically wrong with saying that less "passing when the pass isn't there" will lead to less turnovers? (which I think will be better for this team, regardless of assist numbers). I will get into your point about how D'antoni wants to run the offense a bit later...

You can always lean on this argument: "well, look at the numbers Harden and Westbrook are putting up!? How can you say they are doing anything but increasing their teams chances to win? look at the numbers!"

I have two responses.

1. Aside from the horrendous effort last game, Harden Is usually able to find a way to put up similar numbers in wins and losses. I think this speaks to the fact that you can't look at the guy's stat line and say there is nothing he needs to do better. Obviously, the role players are going to have to hit shots on most nights to win no matter what harden does. However, there have been many nights where they haven't shot well from three and we have still been able to pull out wins. Unfortunately, those types of nights are less possible when harden doesn't limit his TO's and can't find the roller consistently. (which has been the case over the past few weeks.)

2. This style of play has been very good in producing wins in the regular season, and allowing the rockets to squeak past many mediocre teams. The problem is, unforced turnovers and bad shots will almost certainly lead to a quick mercy killing in the playoffs. Against a good team that knows how to capitalize off turnovers.

I am definitely not just saying that harden continually needs to remind himself to be safer with the ball and that will solve the issue. haha I truly wish it were that easy!.

Your response here, in concert with the rest of your argument, seems to be based on his individual stat line. If he is coming up the court thinking about all the individual numbers he has to create in order for this team to win (as you argue) I would say, there is the problem!

What I really think is going on, is he is thinking about the other team's defense and how they are playing him when he is making certain moves, or doing whatever it is that he does on the court. Here is my problem, It is my opinion that he has certain lapses when making the judgments about defenses which cause a lot of the unforced error turnovers. It seems like he has pre-determined in his mind how defenses are going to react to certain plays, and for whatever reason he is not making the in game adjustments necessary to combat the way defenses are playing him or his role players.

So, in essence, my solution for this particular issue doesn't require any more physical effort, which I agree with you he may not be able to give, instead it simply requires him to be more mentally focused on how certain defenses are playing him. IMO he has been relying to much on how certain sets have worked in the past, and hasn't yet accounted for the way defenses are currently playing him.

For this part of your argument I will redirect you to the first part of mine. I know I can't argue that the Rocket's supporting cast is somehow on even footing with other contenders, but I will say it is certainly feasible to expect more from this team. Sure Harden's individual numbers can't get any better than this, but I think I have at least laid out a fair counterargument to the argument that Harden's numbers are the reason his play stands beyond question (especially lately).

I'm not sure I am advocating less passing, maybe just different types of passes, or less risky passes based on how a defense is playing us on a given night.

but...I see your point.

Here is my Issue:

You are saying that Harden reigning in his passing will lead to a less ideal version of the D'Antoni offense being run (less pace, agressivness etc...), which would not be good for this team.

I think it is abundantly clear at this point that Harden either is not capable, or does not want to run the ideal version of the MDA offense. James always moves at his own pace, I rarely see him sprint up the floor like a Steve Nash would to create early offense. He may go faster than he would off a made bucket (walks the ball up the floor) but he absolutley does not play at the MDA ideal pace.

I am not saying that he has to be Steve Nash to appease me, I don't think that is possible. Rather, I am saying that he makes some of these passes (like the full court bombs) to try to make up for the fact that he isn't running down the floor for these buckets. Again, don't take that the wrong way, that is his game and that is fine, but I don't think limiting some of these passes will hurt the offense. I think it will actually make it more suitable to his deliberate style of play.

Did you know the rockets were already at or near the top of the league in half court points scored per game? That doesn't sound like the ideal MDA offense to me. But it doesn't have to be! It just has to be "The James Harden Offense" By: Mike D'Antoni.

Man, I didn't write this up to try to force you to agree with me. I wrote it only to show that there might be a valid counterargument to the argument that the Rockets are as good as they are going to get, and there is nothing Harden can change to help this team. I realize he has been great and the majority of the burden will fall on the role players to be better.

 

Two Things to consider:

1. Harden's assist could be much higher if other folx would not blow layups and would hit their shots.
2. Harden's TurnOvers would be lower if: A. People did not fumble passes. B. People hit their 3's and open up the lanes more.

While Harden bears some responsibility . . .. its a team sport.

Rocket River

 

I hear you on that. I agree that the supporting cast has to be better catching, finishing and shooting.

That long ass essay of a post was more about what harden can do to limit his unforced errors. It wasn't so much about his individual numbers being higher or lower because of made shots or finishes by the role players.

 

Damn, too many essays to read

I'll take off from work tomorrow to catch up.

Good stuff

 

the best passage of the century on the clutchfans
congratulations @Mathloom you hall of famer!