1. Welcome! Please take a few seconds to create your free account to post threads, make some friends, remove a few ads while surfing and much more. ClutchFans has been bringing fans together to talk Houston Sports since 1996. Join us!

Harden rated 4th on ESPN 25 and under

Discussion in 'Houston Rockets: Game Action & Roster Moves' started by Sydeffect, Dec 11, 2013.

?

What do you guy's think of Harden's rating on the list?

  1. Should be higher

    49.8%
  2. Fair

    37.8%
  3. Should be lower

    12.4%
  1. Shaud

    Shaud Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2008
    Messages:
    18,350
    Likes Received:
    451
    Demarcus Cousins should be over Drummond and maybe Griffin
     
  2. asianballa23

    asianballa23 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,273
    Likes Received:
    658
    what, your "facts"?

    stat wise, they're nearly identical son
     
  3. asianballa23

    asianballa23 Member

    Joined:
    May 24, 2003
    Messages:
    3,273
    Likes Received:
    658
    yes i'm sure by end of the season parsons will finish at 51.8% shooting...

    you fools are splitting hair.
     
  4. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2000
    Messages:
    25,432
    Likes Received:
    13,390
    This is what I said:

    FG%, as a stat itself, is absolutely useless

    In your scenario, would you rather have a player that shoots 5-10 for the field and finishes with 10 points, or a player that shoots 2-10 for the field and finishes with 16 points?

    I'll take the latter.

    There is a difference between a player that shoots 20% and a player that shoots 50%. What exactly that difference is, I have no idea... which is the point.

    As for the hack-a's... that's a limited strategy that only works on the worst free throw shooters in unique situations. You'll note that the second Dwight (or anyone) starts hitting 50% on the free throws and the other team fails to score a couple times, the hack-a either stops, or doesn't matter. Which is the point.

    The best team in the league on a points per possession basis is Portland at the moment, currently scoring 1.09 points per possession. That equates effectively to a 55% free throw percentage. The Rockets are at 1.07 - about 53.5% FT% equivalent. Dwight is currently shooting 55.5% from the line.

    The bet is that you add some pressure, you keep sending them back to the line AND that during the stretch your offense scores at higher than average rate (ie every time, or 2 out of 3 times) and it gets you back into a game where you are down 6-10 with time becoming an issue.

    Theoretically, speaking of Drummond, if fouling out, and the bonus weren't a factor, you'd have a really good shot of beating the Pistons by simply sending Drummond to the line every single possession of the game. His 37.5% free throw percentage is the equivalent of 0.75 points per possession, which would be worse in the league for a team by a LARGE margin.
     
  5. Spiegel

    Spiegel Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    5,403
    Likes Received:
    101
    Parsons effect is more then just statistics. Just the fact without him we looked like a team in total malfunction mode and in his return we looked much better is more proof. The guy plays well off and on the ball. He makes the right passes and moves really well off the passers and gives them more efficient options.
     
  6. apollo33

    apollo33 Member

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2009
    Messages:
    20,803
    Likes Received:
    17,369
    just admit you are wrong and move on, there's no point trying to justify yourself when every statistic point to Parsons being a way way way more efficient scorer than Hayward while having a lower usage%.

    39% vs %50 FG, 50%ts vs 60%ts is not splitting hairs
     
  7. JayZ750

    JayZ750 Member

    Joined:
    May 16, 2000
    Messages:
    25,432
    Likes Received:
    13,390
    nothing in my post that was quoted was homerish. It was just pointing out facts.

    He might, he might not.
    I've seen Hayward enough now, and Parsons more than enough, to note that they are fairly equal in terms of capabilities.
    Pick whomever you like better.

    Hayward is younger, and doesn't have the talent around him to play that "filler" role that Parsons has. But Parsons seems a little more capable of playing that role and being more versatile, and is putting up the similar stats (albeit much more efficiently) despite a MEANINGFULLY lower usage rate. And I'd feel much more comfortable slotting Parsons at PF for spot minutes than I would Hayward. Hayward migh tbe a little better as a 2 conversely, though that is splitting hairs.
     
  8. Spiegel

    Spiegel Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    5,403
    Likes Received:
    101
    Considering Parsons yearly chart indicator he finishes 3% better each season interms of FG% from the field and he finished at 48% last season , it's not unrealistic to think he can. He also attacks the basket regulary and usually results in higher FG %.
     
  9. hlcc

    hlcc Member

    Joined:
    Jan 30, 2012
    Messages:
    1,318
    Likes Received:
    136
    5 games is too small of a sample size to show anything. So far he's performing right about where he left off last year, it'll take alot more than 5 games to show he's now an vastly improved scorer, rebounder and passer.
     
  10. Spiegel

    Spiegel Member

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2010
    Messages:
    5,403
    Likes Received:
    101
    It is a sample of what he can when he is healthy. How hard is it to understand?
     
  11. ryebread

    ryebread Member

    Joined:
    Nov 3, 2013
    Messages:
    349
    Likes Received:
    10
    Parsons might be two inches taller but Hayward is absolutely stronger. Parsons is better at slicing through defenses but Hayward seems to be more explosive - just look at some of his blocks from behind on fast breaks.

    FG% means nothing when comparing these two. Parsons benefits from playing with two superstars, and when he drives, opposing bigs can't come over to help because they have to stay on Dwight. 3FG% also means nothing here because Parsons hardly ever shoots a contested 3. Most of his 3s are wide open corner 3s. Most of Hayward's shots are catch and shoot off of screens. Also, since he's the first option, Hayward is the one left to chuck up prayers with the shot clock winding down. Watch a couple of Jazz games (as painful as that might be), you almost feel sorry for the guy.
     
  12. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410
    A better example would even be

    Player 1
    4/10 but shoots every shot a three point attempt making him finish with 12 points on 10 shots at 40%
    Player 2
    5/10 but shoots mid range jump shots for every attempt and finishes with 10 points on 50% shooting

    ^^^ shows how FG% should not be used in today's discussions on efficient shooting.
     
  13. AvgJoe

    AvgJoe Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2009
    Messages:
    3,637
    Likes Received:
    393
    therefore, there is eFG%
     
    1 person likes this.
  14. Houstunna

    Houstunna Mr Graphix
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    38,574
    Likes Received:
    33,847
    Hyperbole to make one's argument sound better. You know it, I know it, everybody knows your statement is over the top.

    More hyperbole for argument reinforcement. Nevermind Drummond's 13pts/13rebs... he could average 3/3 and still be on the list because the ONLY reason is age.


    Thanks for the laughs
     
  15. Houstunna

    Houstunna Mr Graphix
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    38,574
    Likes Received:
    33,847
    There are more players that shoot 50% FG than 40% 3's. Your cherry picked scenario isn't reality.

    Regardless, FG% is not "useless". You're still free to believe whatever you choose.

    Please post another hyperbolic response.
     
  16. FearTheBeardJH

    Joined:
    Nov 10, 2012
    Messages:
    967
    Likes Received:
    183
    MCW does not belong on this list. He had solid 15 games, so what? And by solid his shooting splits are 40.8/32.4/67.1, which isn't too bad for considering he shot below 40% from the field in college.

    He is 22. You are supposed to be at least decent at 22. There are many 2nd and 3rd years players younger than him. Darren Collison had better rookie season than him when CP3 got injured and he is nothing more than an average backup right now.
     
  17. Voice of Aus

    Voice of Aus Member

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2013
    Messages:
    5,157
    Likes Received:
    410
    Why can't you agree that their are better matter metrics to use to compare players instead of FG%. We have stated the reasons like eFG and true shooting which factor in free throw shooting and the added point the 3 ball has.

    (Note I didn't use a HYBERBOYLE which you so like to point out for some reason
     
  18. TheJet

    TheJet Member

    Joined:
    Mar 29, 2013
    Messages:
    1,255
    Likes Received:
    357
    This is getting ridiculous. This standard vs. advanced metrics is like a math argument.

    Basic arithmetic is useful, but limited if you need advanced calculations. Algebra, Calculus, Trig, etc. can provide these advanced results but still contain elements of basic arithmetic.

    So if Harden can add, subtract and multiply he's good, but if Howard can derive and integrate he's more efficient.

    Wait, that's probably backwards. ;)
     
  19. Houstunna

    Houstunna Mr Graphix
    Supporting Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2013
    Messages:
    38,574
    Likes Received:
    33,847

Share This Page