It's both. There's not enough talent overall. They've actually done more and gone farther and pushed GSW farther than they should have. BUT... in doing that, they put themselves to the brink where they had opportunities to win games in the 4th all 6 games, and in all 6 struggled. Even in the 2 wins, they had "big" leads that they gave up in the 4th to only eek out wins. It may just be talent. It may be coaching. But it also speaks to the stars they have in crunch time. And what speaks to that more... is this is now MANY years in a row. Portland Game 6. Clippers Game 6 (for Harden). Spurs Game 6. Warriors Game 6. ****!!! You know what... Game 6's should be burned and never allowed... just skip straight to game 7s... lol In either case, if there is any sliver of a window open, that thing is like 90% of the way down and closed. CP3 at 34/35. Gordon aging. Tucker aging.
There are numerous ways to fix the rockets talent deficit though, and there’s countless examples of Morey doing exactly that. Where is the evidence supporting that accumulating more talent is virtually impossible? Why is this time different than any other time we’ve been cap space strapped? Most would argue it’s not. Ryan Anderson’s contract was just as untradeable as CP3’s contract is today, and we got rid of him just fine. That’s not even going to the idea that historically, returns for a star of James Harden’s caliber have been absolutely terrible, mostly because humans are bad at predicting draft outcomes. The odds that we are better 3 years from now with Zion instead of Harden just because we’ve sucked the 2 year before that is not supported by reality.
I think The Knicks have a better shot at trading for AD than the Lakers. I don't see AD ending up on the Lakers because I just don't see the Lakers trading Lonzo and NOLA will not risk trading for Ingram.
The only counter example that works is the CP3 trade. That worked because CP3 wanted to come here. So it's virtually impossible because we have to get a player that wants to come here. Most seem to be hanging their hat on Jimmy Butler. And he may want to come here, but he probably just wants to get paid A LOT. He also seems to prefer LARGE markets. My money on Butler is on #1 Sixers (he wasn't the problem) and #2 Nets. But NYK and LAC are also possibilities... but I honestly don't think he wants to come to the Western Conference and nor should he. And I'd put all of those teams above the Rockets As noted, there is really only one time they've been cash strapped and landing a great move. CP3. And here we are still without a ring and paying a 34 yo CP3 $40+ million. Ryan Anderson not a good trade example. They ended up giving up a 1st round pick, and two second round picks, for effectively nothing. Unless you want to value 1 decent Iman Shumpert game.... But historically players that can't get over the hump haven't gotten over the hump. There are 2 examples otherwise. Just like there are counter-examples to your note. On the contrary, reality shows that you have to have some of your own high lotto picks to win a championship ring, with limited exception. It doesn't mean getting high lotto picks = championship. Cause history also shows doing that can keep you crappy for years. I think we all want the same thing - a ring, sooner rather than later. I'm more willing to suffer for it... IF necessary. Ultimately, to me, it comes down to my belief in DM's ability to QUICKLY rebuild is much stronger than my belief in (i) Harden's ability to close out multiple series against dominant teams (of which there will always be at least one... bear in mind, the Bucks would have been favored over the Rockets in the FInals this year even if they got past GSW) combined with (ii) DM's ability to add enough talent to help with that given the state the team is currently in and the cap situation its in.
They do. Tilman has not traded them yet for LTS. 2019 1st to Cleveland 2019 2nd to New York 2020 2nd to Dallas or Sacramento 2022 2nd to Cleveland
Rockets arnt trading harden. Although I’m sure the pelicans would trade Zion for harden. Harden and AD together would be unstoppable. Griffin could find pieces to fit around them some Trevor Ariza type guys and that team could win a title next year.
You can't trade Harden at this point he's 1 of 5 guys that can get you to the finals for the next 5-8 years. If we had a homegrown 1B piece like lets say AD or Westbrook it'd be a smart move to stay competitive for longer
The chances that Zion is ever as good as Harden are tiny. And I'm a believe in Zion--I think he's a fantastic prospect. But projecting any prospect to the heights that Harden has reached is foolhardy. You only do that trade if you've totally given up on this era of Rockets basketball and want to push the reset button. I wouldn't do that.
Harden is also 30, and his style is not really conducive to winning in big game moments - can you change? Can he move his body off the ball, can him adjust his game and push it up the floor? I dunno, I think he is an all time GREAT scorer - who is making people think about changing the rules, ala Barkley backing it down, or Kareem dunking - but he just shrinks at important moments, and his pal CP3 is known for that too..... And, we lack energy and committment to playing hard all the time, or even MOST of the time - and that IMHO is a lack of leadership on the floor.... So, to me, Harden is a great individual player, all time scorer, and a lousy leader....not someone that would be enjoyable to play with..... DD
MVP yes, but also regular season stat padder & serial quitter in big games. The bigger question is as fans, do we want to work towards being a real contender? Or have a superstar w/ "swag" but not enough drive get us a ring?
If we had Hinkie as the GM, he'd do it in a heart beat. Trust the process. The thing is, Zion has a higher ceiling than Harden. But he may or may not reach his ceiling. Harden, on the other hand, has pretty much reached his peak. He can only improve marginally if at all from now on. So it's a gamble. If you trade Harden for Zion, you are preparing to tank for a year of two before he is mature. In the process, you may get another high pick. And you also hope that the Warriors dynasty will be waning by then.
Good god the Harden takes in this thread.... Most of all the good ole boys are here. Hatin and having no clue since 2012.
There's a difference between hate and just understanding reality. Like the reality is I have a outstanding $50 tip jar bet with @BigMaloe: ""In 4 years, will harden lead the rockets to a championship." Is the bet. If they win a championship, @JayZ750 has to pay $50 to the tip jar. If they fail to win a championship, @BigMaloe has to pay $50 to the tip jar." I so hoped I'd lose that bet. Not as of yet. In the very same thread, @vlaurelio and I went back and forth about Harden vs. Giannis. I was proposing Harden for Giannis. For instance, he now funnily wrote: "LOL so called "die hard Rockets fan" betting his money on the Rockets not winning a ring... curious in 4 years what's the deepest in the playoffs Giannis can reach? Can he reach the finals in 4 years in the Least?" The Trade Harden thread that @Asian Sensation has taken heat on is now two years old. He's still waiting and hoping to be proven wrong. Like me. When you take off the rose colored glasses you see more clearly...
I don't want to do this. But... if we were to blow it up, how about: Harden for #1 pick CP3 for John Wall and 2-3 firsts Capela for ________ Would NOP do that? Would Wizards do that? Who could we get for Capela?
Wasn’t even referring to you. Guess you haven’t necessarily caught my eye as a poster who has over the years consistently just been dead wrong on evaluating Harden’s game. A few others in this thread, Jesus Christ, they can’t help themselves. I’d suggest people take off the blinders. If there were a better understanding of reality around here then trading Harden wouldn’t have ever been a topic for discussion. Plenty of players are good enough talent wise to win, but don’t. And not all of them were because of a specific flaw of their own, but that of the time they were playing. I believe I checked the other day and if you combine regular season and playoff win shares for all players since Harden arrives in Houston, only Lebron is ahead of Harden. I don’t expect anyone to take that as definitive proof that Harden has been the 2nd best player over that period of time, but I think it highlights how productive he has been for us and how much he has meant to us winning a lot of games. I also think people who live the bottom line lifestyle in sports are just wrong. “He hasn’t won, therefor he can’t and won’t win.” Just doesn’t make sense to me at all if you look at Harden. I know the other side hates to hear it, but without the Warriors super team it’s very, very possible we would have won one. And hell we almost did it anyway. Today I’d have a hard time putting up a good argument against pulling the trigger on a Harden for Giannis swap. I think there’s a very good argument against doing the same for Zion. I believe Harden still has 2 top 5 MVP level years left before he starts to slowly tail off.
I’m so annoyed at people like you continuing to ignore the fact that although harden is MVP, harden plus CP3 at age 34-36 on a max is not winning a ring
Even if you don’t believe Harden has clutch finishing problems, which would fly in the face of years of both nba playoff results and heck ncaa results (check out his March madness stats).... A big part of trade Harden is the window. Before this year I might have believed once kd left the window would open up again. Now, not buying it. Bob Myers is a good GM. He will replace KD with a few very solid role player type guys. And the Bucks are REALLY good and Giannis is getting better. The Nuggets will continue to improve - they are all so young. The Jazz will improve imo. OKC May eventually figure it out. Awe have to see if AD ends on the Lakers but even if not either them or the Clippers (Jerry West Magic) will improve. The Kings are hungry. The Mavs might be onnto something.
