Yes it's an irrufutable fact that more lives -- if you consider fetus the same as a human being and that's precisely the view of SM -- are lost due to abortions than terrorist attacks. No candidate running for public office in this country said that he/she was not concerned about terrorism. To SM, abortion is the ultimate litmus test to choose political candidates in the U.S. Both Israel and Palestine have committed acts of terrorism in their battle for the sovereignty over the disputed land, so again the point of terrorism is pretty much moot in this discussion.
I don't think that most people view a fetus as a human life. Thus most people do not consider it murder. DD
I agree with all of that. I disagree with that. I would not say the Israel has engaged in terrorism, well pretty much ever. The people who founded Israel engaged in terrorism before it was a country, some 60 years ago. The Palestinians continue to engage in terrorism. I do not think you can say that the terrorist activities of Israel and Palestine are equal, so you are arguing from a faulty premise. If Israel and Palestine were equal in every way besides abortion, then you would have a point. Since they are not, I will choose which side I want to support, you can go right on supporting the terrorists.
Israel should stop the attacks...IF....they want peace. The US should tell Israel..."you want support, you stop the attacks" otherwise you are on your own. DD
Nice way to dance around it, but your challenge to SM was why he supports Israel when they permit abortion... 'Since you are also a hard core interventionist, don't you find it impossible to reconcile your fundamental Christian beliefs with your position on the US foreign policy in the Middle East, i.e., the unconditional support of Israel? ' ... yet SM supports the US which also allows abortions.
You think I will not notice you use Israel (the country designation) on the one hand and Palestinians (the people designation) on the other hand in the same argument? There's no need to spin here, it's well documented that both Israelis and Palestinians have engaged in terrorist activities, although they were officially condemned by the respective governments. My premise is perfectly valid based on your grand standing on the abortion issue, which you said: "I believe that abortion should be considered murder." "1. Abortion - the murder of about a million innocent people every year cannot be allowed to continue. No other issue has such a negative impact." [in the thread Rank Your Issue] "The lives of nearly a million innocent people being snuffed out every year is important to me. More important than illegal wiretapping, tax levels, and every other issue that has arisen around GWB. Ten Iraq wars wouldn't cause the yearly devestation of abortion on demand." "Yes, because the [pro-abortion] President will routinely kill nearly a million innocent Americans every year." "I could not in good concience vote for someone who had a pro-choice agenda. More people are killed every year by abortion than by 10 Gulf War 2s. On the bright side for you liberals, my vote doesn't really count because I live in California." [This one is for cohen] "1. overturn Roe v. Wade and outlaw abortion ... 3. establish a doctrine of military intervention based on humanitarian concerns" [the list has 9 wishes, #2 is on minimum wage] Given that there are close to 20,000 abortions each year performed in Israel, and virtually none in Palestine, what is the guiding principle for your unequivocal support of Israel where there are genocide, premeditated mass murders going on? SM, take up your moral stand, now or never.
Still dancing I see. It's one issue orf many. And he apparently does not condemn his own country for it, why should he hold another country to a different standard? BTW, you're saying that the Palestinian gov has condemned all terrorist attacks on the Israelis?
I already said that I thought Israel should outlaw abortion. I also think America should outlaw abortion. America kills way more people through abortion than al Queda kills through terrorism, but that doesn't mean I want Osama bin Laden to destroy America. Likewise I don't want Palestine to wipe Israel off of the map just because Israelis kill more people through abortion than Palestinians kill through terrorism. I see you are not renouncing your support of Palestine even though they not only commit acts of terror, but actually elected a terrorist organization to head the government. I guess my supposed logical inconsistancies are more outrageous to you than blowing up innocent people.
Are you implying that Israel does not "blow up innocent people" as well? Wnes didn't deny the fact that Palestinians committed terroristic acts in the past, he's saying that both sides are/have been guilty of that at one point or another. Or do you hold the position that, say, a suicide bombing by a Palestinian man targeting innocent Isaelis is more 'immoral' than an Israeli missile blowing up innocent Palestinians? Is firing a missile 'cleaner' and the more 'civilized' way to go? Is the real issue here that suicide bombings sound 'too foreign', too alien a concept to Western sensibilities? I can understand that...
This is an insane debate. It is not even close to apples to apples. Abortion is not the same as strapping a bomb to a brainwashed kid and having him blow people up on a bus. If you think abortion is wrong, fair point, but NOT THE SAME !! DD
You are correct.. Apples and oranges; backpack bombs and abortions are not close. However, firing a bomb attached to a missile into an aprartment complex or market to kill an alleged Hamas leader and then with 99.9 % certainty killing him along with people who are assumed to be innocent is much more equivalent to strapping a bomg on and killing folks in a crowd or apt complex, all of whom are also assumed to be innocent. In addition the folks with the bomb attached to a missile are clearly in fact fighting a war that is attempting to acquring more territory which they are even today buidling on with intent tp permanently annex. ,while the folks with the bombs in backpacks are fiighting for the very neighborhoods and houses they live in. currently. Israeli is I assume making a legal claim to the land they are seeking to acquire by their military action and wall building.. Anyone can make a legal claim and the basis under international law seem very weak. Why not settle the claim to at least the Pre 1967 borders in a court of law. The Israelis would not allow that. The Palestinians legal claim to the West Bank and Gaza is much stronger , though the Israeils hope to make that irrelevant by military conquest. Israel says they won't settle the 1967 borders because some on the other side say they want the pre 1967 Israel land to. This is bogus on seveal levels. However, given the Holocacaust, this is very frighening and it is used by its leaders to scare the population into submission to their goal of denying peace perhaps forever while fighting to annex more land. The techniques is like fanning the flames of 911 fear here which has been very effective also. I also aware that the Istraelis claim that they are not seeking to acqure the new land, but are merely fighting to keep their part of the area they occupied before 1967. Anyone can make a claim, but the facts on the ground must speak for themselves. Throughout the years some Arabs/ Muslims/Palestininas have refused to accept Israel's pre 1867 border. There are others who do accept. Someone shoud link to those including recent very widepsread and important statements by virtually the entir Arab and Mulsim world that are not covered much by our press. PS there are certainly some individuals and relatively powerless organizations who do not accept Israel's pre 1967 bordes. The only one who benefit from this are the extremists on both sides.
Ok this is a little ridiculous. I don't care what your opinion is on Israeli policy in the disputed territories, but don't try justifying suicide bombings. Just as you say Israeli missiles are killing innocent Palestinians, so are these suicide bombings. You can't justify this type of terrorism under any circumstances.
Ok, I don't care what your position is either. Don't try to justify extrajdicial killings, when you also know with 99 % certainty, other and not even allegedly guility folks will be killed to. What is next? A claim that I am an antii-semite? I know this is an Israeli-Palestinian thread, but take a deep breath and THINK.
Two wrongs dont make a right. I have a lot of problems with Israeli policy but I'm not about to stand here and say that Palestinian suicide bombings are ok or justified. Killing innocent civilians is never right. You can't stand here and criticize Israeli killings of innocent civilians and then say that Palestinian attacks are ok. Both can be rejected. I know you're not an anti-semite and I may even agree with you on a lot of the issues surrounding this problem but it's pretty ridiculous of you to label me a troll for saying suicide bombings are bad.
why is that a justification and not an explanation? and the explanation renders an oppressed peoples actions, in my moral spectrum, not as atrocious as the oppressors actions. that doesn't mean either side should be doing what they are doing. but if you fail to recognize the desperation of one side in your analysis, you are either ignorant or morally blind.
