Hakeem would *definitely* average 25 to 27 ppg in today's NBA

This is one of those debates that will probably never end, and likely correlates with age groups of those discussing it. I'm 24 and started following basketball during in '93, but even I will admit that the quality of play probably hit its apex around the early 80's and tailed off with the departure of Jordan and his later contemporaries (Hakeem, Barkley, Malone, Stockton, Drexler).

Nevertheless, you're not going to deter me from the idea that there is a higher basal level of athleticism required today to even sniff the league than there was even in the 80's. Football is like this also; every few years there is a new expectation level for pure athleticism numbers recorded in the Combine. Baseball is not like this: as long as they have had speedometers, the best pitchers in baseball have always been throwing in the high 90's, with some like Bob Lemon in the 1920's purported to have had fastballs that even reached 100mph by what measurements they could offer back then. No matter how many steroids hitters take, they are essentially running up against similar conditions and levels of play as those who played 40-50 years ago, which is why baseball lends itself so well to these historical debates (of course there are pretty big events that make comparisons problematic, such as integration and the lowering of the pitcher's mound, but that's another debate).

Anyways, about basketball and football, certainly there is a modicum of skill involved in playing the sport that can overcome any deficiency in raw athleticism, and that's why I give players in the 80's the nod over those today. From ESPN classic videos, it seems that they were all better shooters, and especially from midrange, compared to those today; but at some point you have to draw the line and say "that guy is NOT getting that shot off in the league today", and right around the time Dr. J entered the league is where I set the bar. When over 3/4 of the players in your era wouldn't be quick or strong or tall enough to play in the NBA today, then I find it impossible to argue that they would be able to not only hold their own in today's league, but be the best?

The best comparison we can make to that is the NCAA. Some players were just born to dominate the NCAA, because they have a unique set of skills that are unstoppable in that setting. JJ Redick. Tyler Hansborough. Hasheem Thabeet. When they go to the NBA, however, that basal level of athleticism I was talking about earlier starts to kick in. If it's true Wilt and Russell had enough athleticism to allow them to utilize their skill set adequately in today's NBA, their statistics from the olden days would have no bearing upon proving that. It's going to come down to what we see on video and how nostalgic your memories are, which leads us to our current impasse.

 

i don't think he meant that dream would average 40 pts agaisnt those guys, but that he can do it regularly. i would think he would score 40 against those guys as often as yao would score 30 pts against those guys. maybe a bit more often cause yao only did it like a couple times in his career? once against dampier and the other time against gasol? dream scored 40+ against drob many times.

 

A big problem with your NCAA example. JJ Redick and Tyler Hansborough played college in a time where the best college players are already in the NBA so they've looked a lot better in college than they would have looked in earlier years. Neither of these guys are even in the top ten of players who've ever played at UNC in terms of ability or athleticism. Would Hansborough even get a sniff on a team with James Worthy, Michael Jordan, and Sam Perkins? How about a team with Vince Carter and Antawn Jamison? Not so much.

Another thing with respect to athleticism, I think it's a big misnomer to say that improved athleticism equates to better players necessarily. I think the great players would be great today on offense and I'll use Larry Bird as an example because he wasn't that athletic to begin with. He was a great player based on skill level and knowledge of the game and tenacity and just sheer talent. Do I think James Posey could guard Bird any better today than James Worthy did because Posey might be a little more athletic? Hell no. Bird would wreck Posey just like he would do to anyone. Now if you took LeBron and put him on Bird then you have a special situation but LeBron is far from the average athlete in the league right now.

 

Precisely.

Just because Hakeem had some finesse, people think he was a 'euro-style' player?

He's Dwight Howard with genuine post moves and an 18' jumper.
Unstoppable in his prime when the Knicks were allowed to wear him like a suit - he would absolutely slay the competition these days.

If Shaq can manage 18.2 ppg and 8.6rpg at 37 years of age in this league - then just consider what happens when you bring in a player like Hakeem in his prime?
There's very few players who could match Hakeem for strength, and the ones who can would be 'played' by his speed (face up at 18', dribble, spin, dunk or fake the dunk, spin back and lay it in for the and-1).

His scoring prime was 26-29ppg from 1992-1996 - surely he'd at least get those sorts of numbers?

The thing I think about is how many blocks he'd get in todays game! If he's allowed to anchor the middle of a zone, forget about driving the lane!!

 

If athleticism ruled Stromille Swift would be an all-star. There's no question that basketball (and football) players are stronger and faster today due to a larger playerbase, diet, training and drugs but it's not true that there's a direct correlation between that and success.

I mean there's no question who is faster than whom in combines... it's recorded fact. Yet why is it that then that draft picks are wasted and lottery picks become busts?

In every era there are genetic freaks who transcend the time period. For example there might never again be a Magic Johnson or Lebron James or even Yao Ming. Those guys are literally 1 in a few billion statistical outliers.

As for Wilt, this is one player whose athleticism is beyond reproach. He was an almost Olympic-level track and field athlete whose times are recorded.

 

The Bird example is a good one, CometsWin. Everyone knew that he wasn't the world's greatest athlete. Heck, it was talked about then, but the guy just killed you. Stuck the knife in your ribs and grinned while he was doing it. And we'd all take Worthy over Posey, ten times out of ten! I always considered the Rockets team of that season to be much more athletic than the Celtics, especially before we lost Lucas, and I thought we might be able to slow Bird at least a bit, because we had some terrific defenders, but when the guy decided to quit fooling around, he stepped up to yet another level and we couldn't stop him. I don't know if there was ever a smarter player in the league. He was the MVP that season for the 3rd time in a row. Only other ones to do it? Wilt Chamberlain and Bill Russell (at least up until then... anyone else manage the feat?). That Celtics team, as much as I hated them at the time, is a perfect example of intelligent and experienced players (and a great coach) trumping the guys that could jump out of the gym and had serious skills (and a pretty good coach, as well).

We've done this a lot of times, but it's still fun to think about.

 

The zone wouldn't have affected him as much when he was younger, in the 80's, when he could run like a guard.

 

Totally agree with you on Bird. One of the great things about him is that if he ever found out you were putting one player (like a Posey) on him because he was more athletic than another player and his team thought he'd have a better chance at shutting Bird down, Bird would go out of his way to destroy Posey just to make a point. He was that much of a killer on the court and that great of a player.

 

Everyone that talks about athletic ability, needs to look at Scola. If Scola can get his shot off, anyone can. Scola can barely dunk. Bird was Scola with sick range, a release behind his head, decent handles and a ridiculous competitive drive.

 

Bird was a lot more than that! These are his numbers from that season the Rockets lost to them in 6...


If there was any doubt that Larry Bird deserved to be ranked among the greatest players in basketball history, he dispelled it with a masterful 1985-86 season. Bird did everything that year, finishing fourth in the league in points (25.8 ppg), seventh in rebounds (9.8 rpg), and ninth in steals (2.02 per game). He led the league in free throw percentage (.896) and finished fourth in three-point field goal percentage (.423). He also led his team in assists with 6.8 per game.

http://www.nba.com/celtics/history/Recap_1980s.html


Wow! He was so much fun to watch, even if you hated him.

 

I never understood why athleticism is such a polarizing topic. It's just a part of the game. Sure if you could do everything and shoot the lights out like Bird, you can do without it. Also, if you can jump out the gym like Dwight Howard you can deal w/o being more skilled.

Is Scola more skilled than Dwight? He certainly is. Is he better? Nope.

I admit, I didn't watch Bird. I've just seen ESPN classic games but he definitely didn't seem as un-athletic as people seem to act like he is. He just seemed less athletic than some of the other good players of the time. He didn't seem as slow as say a Shane Battier. From what i've seen he seemed about on the same level, athletically as a Tayshaun Prince, which isn't bad, he was a 6'9 player.

 

but he is not of this generation~

 

Are you kidding me? Seattle was the one team that slowed dream and that was a matchup thing. Gary Payton with ball pressure perkins in front and kemp behind. Since Thorpe was a limited range guy, kemp didn't have to go too far to help on Dream. As far as Yao in the old days, I think he would suffer big time. The physicality of the post play was much greater than it is now. Not only that, teams would iso yao to death especially a guys that could put the ball on the floor like david robinson. Can you picture yao trying to guard Robinson on a wing or off the rebound in transition? I think Hakeem playing against the guys now would be a slaughter. I mean Shaq is a top 3 center today at 37. Shaq demolished a 35 yr old dream. Either that says how dominant shaq was or is or how bad dream was in 98.

 

Yes, Dream could easily average in the high 20's today. He averaged over 26 ppg for four years during his career against tougher opposition.

I'll put it this way... my all-time team has been intact since the mid-90's... but I'm now considering finding a place for Lebron. In the last 15 years, nobody else, including Kobe, has made me think they belong with Magic, Jordan, Dream, Bird, Dr. J, Wilt, Clyde, Oscar, Barkley, Barry, etc.

Maybe it's nostalgia, but I just don't think the game has the number of great/really good players that it had from 1975-1995.

Just look at the MVP winners... from 1975-95 the following won at least one MVP:

Dr. J
Walton
Kareem
Moses
Bird
Magic
MJ
Barkley
Dream
Robinson

Compare that to the list since MJ won his last MVP in 97-98...

Karla
Shaq
AI
TD
KG
Nash
Dirk
Kobe

Which team would you take?

Of those who won recently, most likely none win between 75 and 95. Of those, Shaq and Kobe are the only ones that stand a chance of competing with their predecessors.

AI and Nash are going to win over Magic? Not a chance. Tiny Archibald led the league in scoring and assists one year yet failed to garner the MVP... he didn't even finish second. By the way, neither Zeke nor Stockton came close to sniffing an MVP.

Until everyone else, like Dream and MJ were on the downward spiral, Karla was just another good player, yet he was still better and dare I say it... more clutch... than KG and Duncan.

As for Dirk, well, do I really need to say anything? Dirk winning the MVP is like Milli Vanilli winning a Grammy that Stevie Wonder owned back in the day. Just not acceptable.

 

I love this "Yao, Back in the Day" talk. He would be a monster if he played under those other rules. Sure, it was physical, but what? Yao doesn't get played physical now?!? The guy gets hammered every night, all night. The only thing that stops him now is fronting, but that wouldn't work back then. If you spread the floor with three point shooters, you'd just lob it over Yao's guy and he would dunk it. Think about it: 7'6, 310 lbs with the athleticism and offensive arsenal he has at his disposal? Get real - 26+ easy. He drills freethrows at an 87% clip, for eff sakes! He would live at the line - if the refs were fair, that is. He would probably have the same injury problems back then as he does now, but he would score at a very high rate.

You can't guard him one on one. Too big, too heavy, too skilled. Not saying he would win titles, or anything, but he would be an elite center -- no doubt.

 

I think Shaq and Yao would prefer to play against the Oakleys, McHales or Mahorns and they will do pretty well against them under the old no zone defense rules.

Today's bigs are all floppers. I think Yao can be much more physical than we are witnessing today if he is allowed to push and shove like the old days. But you are right that Yao may need to get into a fist fight or two to earn other's respect.

 

Sorry.. but I don't agree with your statement at all...

if Yao is struggling with the Centers of today, he would have major problems with the Centers of the 80's....

You have to bring it on a nightly basis, not like today where you can take some days off with the talent level.

 

I think his point was that with the old illegal defense rule, Yao would be very hard to defend. All you need to do is spread the floor with 3-pt shooters on the weak side. ISO him on one side of the low block with a mobile entry passer. Fronting wouldn't be as effective as now because the weak side help would be too far away by proper spacing.

 

To me, the most amazing thing about Bird is how he could be so good at stealing.

And yes, I hated him.

 

Then Wilt would average 40ppg.......dude the past called and said for the future You to get a life.